Introduction

Jody Brooks 0:00

What does it feel like to have everything you work for and still feel like something is missing? My guest today, Nicola Anderson, was at the top of her game, a high-achieving leader, a part, a mother, ticking every box the world said mattered. And on the outside, it looked like success, but on the inside she was exhausted, stretched thin, and playing a version of herself that didn't quite fit anymore. She knew something had to change, but walking away from everything you've built, your identity, your status, your sense of who you are, that's terrifying, and it's also deeply quietly Greek-filled. What Nicole discovered on the other side of that sphere changed everything. Not just for her, but for the leaders she now works with every day who are sitting in the same silent struggle. In this conversation, we talk about what it really means to pause before you leave, to transition with intention rather than just escape, and to redefine your success on your own terms without losing yourself in the process. If you've ever thought I can't carry on like this, this episode was made for you. I'm Jodie Brooks. This is Messy Midlife. It's not a crisis, it's a call to connect, and I'm so glad you're here. Welcome, Messy Midlifers. Answering the call to connect today is Nicole Anderson. After two decades of watching successful leaders crumble under the weight of their own achievements, she made a radical discovery. The very strategies that built their success were leaving them stuck, overwhelmed, and exhausted.

Meet Nicole Anderson — Partner at Kayla Group

Jody Brooks 1:30

As a partner at the Kayler Group and co-creator of the inner work of leaders, Nicole helps high-achieving executives solve a paradox. How to maintain peak performance whilst building unshakable confidence and creating lasting impact. She's a certified purpose factor facilitator who helps leaders uncover what they do best and why it matters. Nicole doesn't just help leaders manage their overwhelm, she helps them redesign their relationship with

Nicole's Messy Middle Moment

Jody Brooks 2:00

success itself. She delivers insights that cut through the noise of traditional leadership advice, and she challenges the dangerous myth that burnout is just the price of success and shows leaders what she calls bold leadership, leading with both impact and integrity. Nicole, welcome to Messy Midlife.

Nicole Anderson 2:22

Thank you so much, Jody, for having me. It's great to be here.

Jody Brooks 2:25

We had a pre-chat, and I know that we're gonna have a great show today. And as always, let's start in that messy middle. There was a messy middle moment. I've read your profile, we've chatted. What was that messy middle moment for you, Nicole?

Nicole Anderson 2:42

Yeah. It wasn't very pretty, and it didn't feel very good, as is most messy middles. I think for me, the real shift happened after I had my first kid, or even maybe before when I was pregnant. And I just I started to have this. I was on the wheel, right? I was on the treadmill, just going as fast as I could. And everything that had gotten me to where I was in my career all of a sudden wasn't working anymore. And I found myself with really nothing left to give. My my spouse, uh, as the kids were born, I had nothing left for them. And it just became this cycle. And I realized I just I had this moment where I was like, what is the point? What's my why? And I defaulted to what a lot of people default to, which is oh, it must be my job. I must need a new job, or I must have to work part-time in order to have the life that I want and the freedom that I

Career & Identity: When the Path No Longer Fits

Nicole Anderson 3:45

want. And excuse me, and it started, it really started there. And I had some amazing people in my life at the time that just challenged that, thank goodness. Um but it was a slog, it was a it took years to get through that.

Jody Brooks 4:00

Career-wise, that's a huge shift in identity becoming a parent. And I think it's interesting that you say as well that it perhaps started beforehand. I think we when we know there's a transition coming, it starts the cogs going. But I'm interested to know what was the career at that point in time.

Nicole Anderson 4:19

Yeah, at that time I was leading a people and culture. So at this point, I I was leading, I was standing up a talent engagement function in my organization. I had come in as a consultant and I had been there for a good six, seven years and it was successful. And then I just I have a way, my brain just has a way of seeing where the gaps are and finding ways to connect them. So that's what I started doing. And I'm passionate about people and leaders and helping them thrive. And so that's where I started to gravitate. So at the time when that this was happening, I had built a bit of that function up and I was straddling

Motherhood vs Career Pressure — The Impossible Choices

Nicole Anderson 5:00

an internal corporate world and consulting at the same time.

Jody Brooks 5:04

That's a lot of external that you're having to essentially put a front on and a presentation, particularly in that arena where it's about people. Was there a part of it that felt like that that there was very much this external you, which was this encouraging people to be their best and everything, whilst at the same time on the inside, that's not how you felt.

Nicole Anderson 5:27

Yeah, the irony probably didn't hit me in the moment, but looking back, the irony was very strong. Uh I it's interesting, get a little personal here if that's okay, but I came from I grew up in North Carolina. So in the States, this is the South, and there's a very traditional mindset, and you'll find some of the warmest people you'll ever meet. They're huggers, they're very open. And so I moved up into the DC area, which was much more structured and chaotic and busy. And as I made that transition, I did find that I started to shift who I was and how I showed up. And there was a wall that started to come up. So it was about this point where the wall that kind of keeping everybody at arm's length and being kind of protective about myself, it was starting to show some cracks at this point. And so when you talk about this face that I felt like I had to put on or this performance, it felt very real. It felt like that was something that I had to do in order to succeed, to be seen as a leader, to be ready for promotion. And yeah, that that face, putting on a face was very, very real. And then as a female, often I would get the advice when you're not feeling 100% confident. Or in my case, I was working in the consulting space that was highly male-dominated, older white men dominated. So as a younger female coming in, feeling like I had to prove myself, the strategy was fake it till you make it, right? Put on your skirt and your heels and pull your hair up and pretend like you know what you're doing to build that trust. And so all of that was starting to hit at the same time. It didn't feel authentic, it was exhausting. And yeah, certainly looking back, there's this sense of this layer that I was putting on, this mask I was putting on in order to play the role that I thought I was supposed to make to be a successful leader.

Finding Agency & Designing Your Own Version of Success

Jody Brooks 7:30

You say that you make the very valid point about being a female and then obviously becoming a mother, and how that can be seen, particularly in those arenas, to start impacting not essentially what you might think of your capability to do the role, but again, in that world you're in, it sounds like there's very much that that element there of now you're a mother, you're not as capable in the workplace as you were before. But did that appear? Did that play a part of it?

Nicole Anderson 7:57

Actually, if I'm being really vulnerable, there there was a moment that I met and I was pregnant, and I met with my HR representative at the time, and I just remember having this almost I wouldn't even call it a panic attack. That feels a little dramatic, but it was this kind of reckoning that I had where in my head I could either be a good mom or I could work hard, do the 50-60 hours a week, and I couldn't have both in my head at the time. And so yeah, I absolutely had this bit of crashing together that happened, this reconciling that that had to happen in order to start to rethink how I was doing things. And ultimately I did find, maybe I'm jumping ahead too much, but yeah, I did find that there is a way to have both, it just looks different than what I thought it was. So I really had to break the mold of what I should do and what I thought success looked like in order to be able to find my own way.

Jody Brooks 8:53

I think for a lot of people, it usually is tied up in identity, and when our identity is placed outside of ourselves, and it's interesting there listening to you that you're on this very successful career path and that's been your destination, and then all of a sudden you don't think it's gonna derail, but you make this phenomenal, fantastic decision to be a parent, and all of a sudden you're presented with what shouldn't be a choice, but at that time it feels like a choice. I wonder then obviously I'm presuming you you go off, you take your maternity leave, and how did that feel being almost I would have thought, was it like being suspended in time? You've got this new role, but that old one's sitting there, and there's a point of a decision that has to be made later on.

Nicole Anderson 9:46

At the time, as with many messy middles, it was all mushed together. You don't totally realize when you're in the middle of it the diamond that's being formed at the time. So it probably it was about a year after my first child was born that I had the aha moment of I was sitting on my back deck, I was looking at the trees and sitting with nature. First time in a while that I had been by myself to really let my my my brain think. And that was when I had this moment of maybe I should start thinking about designing what I want retirement to look like. And at the time, it it felt like all of a sudden it felt like it was around the corner. I had 10, 20 years, but in my head, that's I was wanting to design because I didn't want to look back and feel regret. And it was really in that moment, that morning on Saturday, when I started to design what that looked like, what freedom looked like, what making an impact, making a difference could look like. And then as soon as I did that, it wasn't 30 seconds later, I

Rethinking the Ladder — Retirement, Redesign & What You're Really Climbing For

Nicole Anderson 11:00

had this moment of like anger of I don't want to wait. That feels like somebody else's rules. So what could I do to create this life of freedom now? And that's really that moment. So this time period was probably about a year of shaping and molding and finding that place. And and when I realized that I had agency to create and I could kind of break apart what success looks like, and I could define it, that's when the ball really started to shift.

Jody Brooks 11:33

You did very well. Mine took three years. Kios to you, like a year.

Nicole Anderson 11:38

Oh, there was still messy. It was still a lot of messy, let's be clear. It took a few more years, too.

Jody Brooks 11:43

So interesting in that as well. I wonder then it's funny that retirement then all of a sudden you have this thing about retirement. But prior to that, had that ever entered your thought process, or was it just this continual long career path of of climbing the ladder of more success where there wasn't really a destination?

Nicole Anderson 12:07

Yeah, I I think a lot with a lot of high achievers, you kind of get to one step in the ladder and you don't even stop to pause and reflect or celebrate. You're just kind of continually looking up. And my role models in life, my parents growing up, my mom and stepdad at the time were successful, what I perceived as successful. And and what I saw was working long hours, climbing a getting promoted. That was reinforced externally with friends and inside the companies that I that I worked in. And yeah, so did I assume that that it was gonna continue? Yeah, I just I didn't it didn't even occur to me that there might be another way.

Jody Brooks 12:55

It was interesting that you you started thinking about retirement, and I think often when we're in those corporate worlds and we're in those careers, I don't think we plan for retirement, we just know it's this distant thing. The objective is that constant, continual bettering performance, output, move up, and when I get to retirement, I'll see where I am then. So it was interesting because there's a similarity. That's exactly what happened to me. And because we're all going to be working a lot longer, particularly here in the UK, our official retirement age just keeps creeping by five years. I'm

Support Systems & Making Hard Choices

Jody Brooks 13:30

a Gen X, so I've really lucked out because every time I think I've got nearer, they just shift it again. That was my pivotal moment. My pivotal moment was okay, you need to work out how you retire but carry on working. How you redesign it so that you can do the things that you perceived you would do in your later years, but you're gonna have to work as well. So this means that you have to redesign work. I think it's interesting that when maybe we've shifted what retirement is completely, but it's now how do we strike a balance that allows us to fulfill what we want to do? You talk there as well. You mentioned earlier on that you had some people around you, but how easy was it initially to say to people, look, this is what's going on, this is how I feel?

Nicole Anderson 14:20

It no, not easy at all. I I for the hardest part was I just putting words to it. That right there was the hardest part, and it took uh this really speaks to the value of coaching. It took a coach who was specialized in ambitious working moms, and we just kind of cracked the nut just little bit by little bit each week. So, you know, looking back, sure, it feels oh gosh, that was so easy. But in the moment, it doesn't, right? It feels really big and hairy, and it feels like the things you're doing, the progress you're making, you know, it doesn't it's not working. It's interesting. I on that same porch, looking out in the backyard, I had a moment where it was a Sunday afternoon. I had something to deliver for work, and I was just, I knew I had some time. I'd gotten a babysitter, I'd carved out the space for it, and I sat down to do my my work, my project. And Jodi, I couldn't get my brain to work. I I could not turn on my work brain. And I had this moment, I texted my coach at the time and I said, I don't know what's happened, I'm broken. I didn't say it just like that, but I can't actually do the work. And she thought that she really was the one that called out and held up that mirror, much like a good coach does, and says, No, this is what you've been working for. I was working nights and weekends, I had no boundaries, and therefore I had no energy left for anyone else, family, friends, myself. And uh, and when I had that realization of, oh, something is shifting. I am my behaviors are shifting. That's when I had the aha moment of, okay, this feels good. We're making some, we're making some progress. Sometimes you need someone to hold that mirror.

Jody Brooks 16:12

It is scary how it creeps up on you. For me, it was a very different moment. Mine was coming out of a meeting, not a bad meeting, going to a toilet cubicle, bursting into tears, putting my head in my hands, and actually just being a bit like you with your work thing. I was, I can't do this afternoon. I I sat in that toilet cubicle and was like, I I didn't want to leave the toilet cubicle. I was like, I am done. And I had done the same thing. I'd been working 16, 17 hour days, driving five to six hours a day, three presentations, and just kept pushing and pushing. I was surviving on four hours sleep a night. Yeah, that's rough. Our body allows us to do this crazy stuff, but I think the hard bit is you said that it's so difficult. And interesting, no one held a mirror up for me in that moment, but listeners to the show will know because I've said it many times, is that what actually did happen is on the back of the toilet cubicle door was a poster that said, Do you need to speak to a mental health first aider? And that was my mirror moment because I was yeah, I do. I'm not gonna, I don't trust any of you in this building, but I do. So the fact that I've answered yes to that question, I need to leave here now, and I actually did. I got my laptop, I left the building and drove home and took three weeks off from there, and that was that kind of radical moment and a huge shift afterwards. But it's interesting as well that element where you were saying they it's not easy to work it out because essentially everything on the outside looks great. Great job, usually house, car, salary, you know, company car, the works. And so to feel as uncomfortable as you do inside doesn't make sense. Would you say that that's part of it as well?

Nicole Anderson 18:11

Yeah, I if if I had to put a uh I don't know, a phrase around it, I just felt like I kept stuffing it down. So it was trying to my body was trying to communicate and and I had been taught to just stuff it down. Just don't let it surface, put it under the pile, it's it'll be fine, it'll get better, just stuff it. And yeah, that was probably one of the most dangerous things we can do. And in fact, a lot of the clients that I work with, they come to me when the stuffing just starts to overflow. And unfortunately, many times it's our health that takes a hit, both physical and mental. And yeah, it it's uh it's tough.

Jody Brooks 18:54

And it I think that people don't realise that it somebody said something to me the other day about what would you do, and I'm and I was like, Stop as soon as you can. But it to come back from it, if you actually hit full burnout, to come back from it will take months. You know, we think it's not two weeks in bed, it's not those things when you push yourself through that limit. I always say to anybody, if you feel that there, stop straight away. For me, the next day I ended up having to go and see my doctor and I was put on sedatives. And that's why I urge anyone in that moment, and obviously the reason I've gone on to do what I do and do the show is that people need to understand that it is not as unknown and as scary or as isolating as you think, and lots of us, in fact, I would say everybody goes through this at some point, and it's not as abnormal or as scary as you feel, and the most important thing is to talk about it.

Nicole Anderson 19:50

I just you're making such a good point, and I will say maybe follow on to one of the questions you asked earlier. I didn't know it in the moment, I didn't know how to verbalize it, but when I did, and maybe you heard the same thing, but I when I did start communicating where I was and what I was going through, the number of times that I heard, yep, me too, I get it, I've totally experienced that. And I don't know, I can't really talk about it. And so that was the validating point for me when then it became personal. Then it was like, let me get through this, and also how can I help other leaders that are going through this? Because this is not okay. This doesn't have to be the standard and the norm anymore.

Jody Brooks 20:32

It is so true to go back. You said that you had some very supportive people around you, and you kind of alluded to the fact that they maybe prevented you from taking a rash decision. So I'm interested to know, first of all, those people around you, how did they help? And what was that rash decision that maybe they said put the brakes on?

Nicole Anderson 20:58

Yeah, it was really two people, and they came from different perspectives. So one was my husband, and one of the reasons why we work so is I'm the feeler and he's the data-driven, logic driven. So when I get to a point where I'm like, I've just got to take action, he's the real anchoring force for me to say, let's talk about what happens after you take that action and what does that mean for the logistics? And there's a mortgage and right. The logic side was really helpful to have that balance. As much as I didn't like it in the moment, because in my mind, that was the solution. In that particular case, I had to work part-time because there was no other way that I was going to be able to have success professionally and my family. So that was one perspective. The second one was my coach at the time. And she was the one, the way she approached it was yep, that that might be a solution. And let's just explore it a little bit more. Really understand, get clarity on what is the outcome that you're looking for. For and separate from this, I had some experiences with an organization. They really brought to light this concept of freedom from uh financial freedom, time freedom, spiritual freedom about success and the and right. What how might you achieve what you want? Once you're really clear on what that is, then how do you start to break it apart? And that's that was the process that I went through. How do I start breaking it apart to be able

The Key Realisation: Awareness Is the First Step

Nicole Anderson 22:30

to think about other alternatives?

Jody Brooks 22:34

So I'm gonna assume then that the rash decision people taught you away from was just walking away from your career and going, That's it, I'm gonna be a mum.

Nicole Anderson 22:43

Yeah, or uh go get another job that's not as demanding or not doesn't have the title, but just as consistent income. There was always this sense of choice. I can't be I can't be successful professionally. And the way that I interpreted that was make a difference in the world, uh make that make something better, uh, that I couldn't contribute there and have any kind of mental capacity to to show up as a present parent.

Jody Brooks 23:10

So as we come to the end of the first half of the show, what would you say were the key things that at the point that you begin to then transform this, were the your key realizations about this messy middle moment, how you were gonna go forward?

Nicole Anderson 23:27

In no particular order, it was a combination of first naming it. I'll say first pausing to your point. Pausing, creating some space mentally. And it didn't have to be for me, I didn't have the luxury of being able to just go off and it I had to do it in these small chunks of time, but I created that space. So create the space and then notice. I had to notice what my body was telling me and then learn how to respond

The Power of Pause — Building Your 18-Month Exit Plan

Nicole Anderson 24:00

to it versus react or just stuff it down. And I would say those two things, once those started happening, the rest of the process for me started to take shape, but those two things had to happen first.

Jody Brooks 24:12

I work from something called the nine principles of authentic living, and the first one is awareness. And my awareness moment was that toilet cubicle, and I say to everybody, it is pause first. That's how bad I felt. But it was a friend who said to me, Don't implode your life. Don't implode your life. There has to be a different way. And so it's it's interesting again that we all go through these things, we have these similar feelings. I say to everybody the first part of the solution is awareness, is to notice, to allow, to pause, to come off the hamster wheel, and stop looking ahead and just start in the messy middle. Sit in that mess and see what it really shows you, notice it. And I I planned an 18-month exit from there. I went back and had lots of ways of coping, but was I think I did it ultimately because I knew I was on my way out of the door that I was gonna do it without leaving myself in crisis. So that's the there's a real similarity in both of

"Choose Your Hard" — The Advice That Changes Everything

Jody Brooks 25:30

those things. Is there anything before we come to uh an end of this messy moment, uh, that we haven't covered that you would like to mention to the listeners before we take a quick break and then talk about the amazing work you do now?

Nicole Anderson 25:48

One thing is coming to mind, and that is when I look back at my journey, and I have some of the moments that we talked about, things got better, and then I took it on. I did it myself, stopped the coaching, moved on, and it wasn't that much longer, maybe nine months or so. I found myself in the front of my house on the in the driveway and an absolute wreck again. And I remember having Rebecca on the call with me, and she's she said something really profound to me that has stuck with me, and I use a lot with my clients as well. And it was this it was choose your hard. What you're going through right now is hard, it's moving fast, there's a lot of things out of your control. It's hard. Making a change is also hard. Both of them are hard. All you have to do is choose which heart you want. And that right there just it just shifted for me. And recognizing it is a choice and staying status quo while the brain tells us that's safe because it's known, it's not you know, it's not an unknown, it doesn't we know what the we know the the devil in front of us, right? It's just a matter of uh really choosing that hard.

Jody Brooks 27:06

I I really like that. There's something that I use with my clients, and I say that if you're finding that you need to be resilient, then it usually tells you that you're avoiding a change. Because to stay stuck in that moment takes resilience, but resilience will exhaust you. Change may be harder momentarily, but you'll have to put a lot of effort

— Break —

Jody Brooks 27:30

into that moment, but you won't need resilience once you've been brave enough to make that change. I am on a par with your coach maybe if I think because I knew for me that that element of in that toilet cubicle, that was that choice. That was that choice is if you stay here, it takes resilience, and you can now see that resilience is not it comes to an end. It's not an infinite resource.

Redesigning Success: What It Actually Looks Like

Jody Brooks 28:00

There's a point where you will no longer be resilient and you will break. And so stop, catch your breath, and be brave and make a change. And you certainly did. We're going to take a few moments of a break for you to listen to this little advert listeners, and then we'll be back after the break and discuss exactly what that change was for Nicole. Before we keep going, I want to invite you into something a little more personal. If Messy Midlife is speaking to you, if you're feeling lost, stuck, overwhelmed, or quietly wondering what comes next, you don't have to walk through this season alone. Inside the Messy Midlife community, you'll find the podcast, the blogs, and practical tools to help you find your way forward. It's a gentle, honest space to explore the nine principles of authentic living with real support, reflection and human connection from me and from other messy midlifers who truly get it. It's a place for honest conversations, gentle support, and absolutely no judgment. Just a space to reconnect with yourself and with others who understand. If that sounds like what you need right now, head to the Messy Midlife homepage. The link is in the show notes and click join the community. Or click connect with Jody at the top of the show notes, send me a message that just saves community, and I will send you the link personally. Okay, let's get back to today's episode. Welcome back, messy midlifers. Before the break, Nicole shared with us beautifully how that messy midlife moment feels for many of us, and that it made her realise that she was gonna ask different questions of her future and different questions of what success could look like for her. So, Nicole, I'm excited now to hear how from that back porch and staring at nature and those other moments that you had, how did you redesign it and how does it now look?

Nicole Anderson 30:03

Yeah, much like you, it took some design. It took getting clear on what I wanted, not necessarily how it was going to look, but what was important to me and what I wanted in my life. And then from there started the process of designing. And a lot of it I tried to do on my own. So it took for me, it was probably 18 months or so. And then it was just being open to opportunities. So I knew uh I knew that I knew what I wanted, I knew that side of it. I also knew that I had to survive where I was, and I was very fortunate to have an amazing company. I loved the people I worked with, amazing bosses, and the work, though there was still this burnout sense. So I used it as an opportunity to experiment and to start to just practice. My mom at the time had just written a book, Mindfully Successful, and through that process of editing the book with her, a lot of the stories I had heard over the years on our commute calls or around the dinner table. But I actually internalized a lot of what she was writing in the book and the what she was putting in there. And it was about that time when I knew that I needed to make a transition. It was time. I didn't feel like I was running. I didn't want to be in a place where I kind of left in a very reactive place or that I didn't feel like I'd accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. So that was really important to me to be intentional about how I left and transitioning well. That was really, really important. And I really did everything I could to set up the organization for success. And I had to get really clear about how I could find purpose in my day-to-day. And it was about this time I found the purpose factor assessment. And it was like as I was reading through this very lengthy 49-page report for the first time, and I am a bit of an assessment junkie, so let me just put myself out there. I will admit that. But this was the first time that I really felt seen from a report like this. Um I could start to see how even in a job that maybe didn't fit me anymore, or I don't know, just being in this transition space, it helped me find where I could still live my purpose, still serve others in a way that felt aligned so that it wasn't quite so draining. Right. And and so again, experimentation, just to pull that all together, it was a lot of experimentation. It was a lot of reflecting on how can I be using my mom's book really mindfully

Transitioning vs Changing Jobs — Why the Difference Matters

Nicole Anderson 33:00

successful, not just letting it happen and transition well. And so it just so happened that towards the end of this 12-month point in time, somebody approached me. And it's just funny how things work, right? You put it out there, once you get clear on what you want, things just start to come in. So I can't say that I really searched for it, but it really just landed. And a former client, turned friend, approached me about joining her company and doing what I do best, which is building organizations and helping people, leaders, thrive. And it felt like the right shift. Scary because there were a lot of unknowns, a lot to build, but it just felt right. And I put the logic lens thanks to my husband, and we had a lot of conversation about how to make it work, because there were some sacrifices that we were gonna have to make with any transition like that. And and then sometimes you just gotta take the leap and be willing to fail. I had to be willing to try it for a year. If it didn't seem like it was working, then there's other places I had a lot to offer. It didn't have to just be here, but I I could at least give it a shot and know confidently that I had tried.

Jody Brooks 34:20

I love the use of the word transition, and it's not something you would hear people say a lot about changing a role or transitioning. They would talk about changing companies, changing their job, looking for something else. Whereas transitioning is a very different approach. Is that something that came out of that messy middle? The realization that it was about a transition rather than a complete change?

Nicole Anderson 34:51

What a really fascinating question. So at this time in my career, I was the VP of a people and culture team. I oversaw HR. So from my lens, I had seen from the back end of a company people come and go. And we had just gone through the post-COVID, everyone leaving. So we had, I had this view, a bit of an external inside inside outside kind of perspective where I had watched people who had left the company well, and those that had just given up kind of quietly quitting is the fun term I think people still use now. I'm a pattern finder. And so my brain just isn't normal. If you're familiar with Strengths Finder or Clifton Strengths Arranger, is one of my top strengths. So I'm always looking for patterns and themes. And I just started to notice that one, when we leave a company, there's the whole history that we have, especially in a company that feels very family-oriented or feels very connected and collaborative. And you can just one day be there and one day not. And that's incredibly, that's incredibly jarring. And it doesn't really lend itself when we think about our

Grief in Career Transitions — It's Real and It's Valid

Nicole Anderson 36:00

portfolio overall, it doesn't really lend our itself to being able to thinking about that bigger portfolio perspective, that that larger career progression. And so the concept of transition really came up for me when I was thinking about working with a particular individual and they wanted to leave in a good place. They wanted to make sure to keep the relationships. And through that process, there was this moment of let's not talk about, let's not talk about it in the same way. Let's really talk about it organizationally as how do we help people feel comfortable transitioning well. And then on the heels of that, I started thinking about what does that look like for me? And I have this sense of responsibility and strong caring for the organization and what I had built and what I was leaving behind. So yeah, transitioning became a bit of a mantra for me. When things were getting hard, it's it really just kind of kept coming back to is this helping me transition well? Yep, things these things are going to be hard, but does it lend itself to transitioning well? And if it did, if it served that, then great, it carried on. And if it didn't, it was really easy to shut down whatever it was to not continue.

Jody Brooks 37:09

I just love it. I love it as a concept because I think it speaks to staying in alignment and not allowing yourself to be pulled off of alignment. And that's quite often what a job role does to us until we reach breakpoint. And you talk about some really interesting bits there. That so much of our identity, we spend so many hours at work, so much of our identity is tied up in our roles and the people around us and the friends and the colleagues that we make and the legacy that we leave behind, particularly if you've been in leadership or a role where you've caused a change and left an impact. Often I think we do this change thing, which then sees us go into a new role but actually with an element of grief from the bits that we've left behind. And so we then go into a new position, carrying a sense of loss, at the same time excitement. And again, it's this double-edged sword, this dichotomy, everything's great on the outside, but inside it's not. And I'd never thought of it until you said that about that power of transitioning, and then I've had a bit of an epiphany and realised I did the same thing without realizing I'd done it, is I transitioned my way out in order to lessen the impact. And I think that's a phenomenal piece of advice for people is you know, don't see this, see it as a journey and see it as a transition that makes it easier, and means that you get to take all of the bits with you that you want and leave behind a legacy that's appropriate. So thank you for that. That's a like a literally a light bulb moment for me.

Nicole Anderson 38:47

I'm so glad. And you know what, Jody, I'm really glad you mentioned the word grief because that is a that is really important for people to recognize. I had a boyfriend years ago. We had decided to go our separate ways, and I was crying one day about the breakup. I'm getting real personal here, Jody. I don't know. Go for it.

Jody Brooks 39:04

That's what the show's about.

Nicole Anderson 39:06

And and he just had this his just very this comment to me, and he was like, but you're the one that started the breakup, but you're crying. That doesn't make sense. And I was like, no, I can know this is the right thing, and I can feel the grief. Those two things can happen at the same time. And I felt that when I left that organization. I I continued on with them for six months as a consultant, and it very much felt like grief for a solid six months. I just felt this pulling away. And I knew that I was still serving them. I knew they were grateful for the help. And I still felt this grief. And I couldn't really put words on it at the time, but it is just such an important emotion to recognize when it's happening, to know that it's okay, totally normal, and it can happen at the same time as excitement and new things, new beginnings. It can happen at the same time. So I'm just I'm really glad you called out that word grief.

Jody Brooks 40:03

I think I actually talk about it an awful lot that we don't just grieve people. In fact, we don't ever really grieve people, we grieve the loss of our identity that was based in those people. So i in that sense, when in an organization in all of those things, we whenever you leave something you will feel that sense. And I think your explanation there of the boyfriend, there is always you would never have been in that situation in the first place if there weren't parts of you that wanted to be there. And so even when you know something has to end and you have to go, there are still gonna be bits that you grieve because you were there for a positive reason in the first place. And sometimes we're grieving the fact that we made a mistake and it wasn't what we thought it was gonna be, but we still invested that emotion in ourselves. I

Taking Ownership Without Taking Blame

Jody Brooks 41:00

don't think anybody ever goes into an organization or a job going, I'm gonna hate it here, but so you know you don't sit in an interview and go, to be quite honest, you're the best of a bad bunch, but I've got to go somewhere.

Nicole Anderson 41:15

I do think that maybe does happen, unfortunately, in this job market, but you're right, that that shouldn't be the goal.

Jody Brooks 41:21

But that probably is my my next question, actually. Is you know how interesting it is when you work with people now, obviously you work with leadership now and with people and also organizations. In I suppose what you've said there is helping people transition and change their viewpoint of success. And before we really dig into that, I just want to pick up on that bit there about how much do you see that when people leave a job and don't transition out of it? Because this is now going to be my new buzzword, you've created it, and I'm gonna use it with clients all the time, and I'm gonna say, I'm a very good leadership expert in America who will tell you all about this. So when people choose to just leave and throw a temper tantrum and blame the organization for how unhappy they are instead of transitioning, how much of actually what's wrong goes with them?

Nicole Anderson 42:15

Yeah, what you've just hit on is what I see happen most of the time when there's not a moment of reflection. When curiosity leaves, that is when there's a sense of I know better, what they're doing is wrong. And we start to to create that divide, that us versus them. And as soon as that starts to happen, the ability to process feedback or the ability to think about from a reflective perspective what did I contribute to this, or what can I learn from this? And when that doesn't happen, you absolutely just take the same stuff to the next organization. And that's where I remember a leader

Common Patterns in Burnt-Out Leaders

Nicole Anderson 43:00

I was working with, she had the same experience. She's like, I've been here for my company for two years, I'm doing X, Y, and Z, and I'm must, I must leave. And the experience that she had, the the moment when she realized, yeah, I'm just gonna take this with me if I don't figure it out now and understand what's underneath the surface, was absolutely brilliant because I don't mean to belabor it, but I just this is such an important point. If we aren't reflective and we don't take those moments to pause, we absolutely will just carry this, carry our junk with us.

Jody Brooks 43:40

It speaks volumes to uh your work now and your experience and how you're encouraging these people to almost in their jobs sit on your veranda and sit out the back and stare at nature and pause and have that moment of curiosity in. In action almost, I think that's the problem is to allow yourself that moment of pausing an awareness. When you're working with leaders now and people in organizations I'm gonna say probably in midlife because that's target age group really for that thing. What are the common things that you see showing up in them that maybe your insight from your own experience means that you can stand there and go, Oh, I know what's behind that?

Nicole Anderson 44:35

There's a combination, there's of one just because of my ability to see patterns and connect dots, there's some things that I can see that are just hard to see in your in yourself. It's just like I can have a friend who needs help cleaning their closet out. I could organize their closet all day long, but don't ask me to do that for myself, right? So oftentimes whenever I'm working with leaders, I will see the the burnout keeps coming up. Whether I'm talking to the CEO, and it's funny because oftentimes I'll be there to talk to them about a leadership program, and they'll see on the side of the page the my bold leader reset, which is helping the high performers that are overwhelmed and exhausted, and they just nail in on that and they're like, I have someone that I really I can't lose them. They're extremely high performer and they're burning the candle at both ends. Can you help them? And so it's that sense of they've gotten to burnout and they still want to make an impact, right? They still they're not, they're not at the shutting down place, but they're just that overwhelmed and exhausted. So that's one. And the second is usually health. Health is, and maybe part of it's because of my own journey. That was one of the big red flags that I had, which really put it in my face. I had it no longer had the choice

The Fear That Keeps You Stuck

Nicole Anderson 46:00

to ignore it anymore because we were talking about do I want to be around for my kids? And I said, yes, I absolutely do, so I've got to take care of this. So health is the other thing that that people will often notice when they're in that just go pattern and can't really haven't gotten to the pause place yet.

Jody Brooks 46:21

How easy is it to get them to pause? Because obviously I'm assuming that you said there that you're in organizations and people are pointing out people they want you to work with because they value them. That must be quite an interesting conversation based on the fact that we know from personal experience that these people are busy holding themselves together externally.

Nicole Anderson 46:41

Yeah, it it is not easy. It is not easy to to get them to pause. So the thing that I'll often talk about is, and I'll use some neuroscience to the to the so it it takes it, it takes away the touchy-feely from it. But when I can help them start to realize that taking a pause is not this frivolous thing on the side, it's not that woo wellness stuff. It is 100% your strategic advantage. When leaders pause, they take the walk around the park in the middle of the day, or they actually get up and eat lunch in the middle at lunchtime. When they do those things to pause or to sit and plan, do their power planning for that week, when they're actually doing those things, that is their strategic advantage. And I think I remember seeing a statistic that only 1% of leaders actually take time to do that strategic planning. 95% of them will say, yes, you need it, but only 1% will actually do it. So if I can get them to see it from a logical perspective and how it's their strategic advantage, then it becomes easier to say, oh yeah, this is a non-negotiable.

Jody Brooks 48:01

What would you say is the biggest fear of these people that is keeping them in a strategy that we know doesn't work? They probably know it's not working, but feel like there's no alternative. What is the fear that keeps them in that essentially, like I was saying before, being resilient as opposed to saying I need a change?

Nicole Anderson 48:24

Yeah, Jody, I think it is this sense that we have to have it all together, that we're not allowed to fail, we're not allowed to say the wrong thing. I definitely had this growing up. The meaning I was the peacekeeper in the family. When things were kind of going sideways, I was the one that kept everything together. And so there was this real sense of I have to keep it together for folks at work when things are people are disagreeing, and I have to be the steady one. And there's this sense that, and I I don't know where

Organisational vs Individual Responsibility — Who Owns Burnout?

Nicole Anderson 49:00

it's how it's perpetuated, but it's definitely it's 100% perpetuated with leaders that you can't feel, you can't show that you feel, you can't ask for help, you gotta know all the answers, and that feels normalized. So of course there's gonna be fear associated with showing vulnerability. There's risk with that as well. If there's not psychological safety, absolutely, that's gonna be harder to do. So there's a sense of needing both of those things to for it to work, both psychological safety and the vulnerability and authenticity. Yeah, it it really just comes down to this fear of not looking like I have it all together. And social media doesn't help with this. We know we've seen the research with what we see online, and everybody looks like they have it together, yada yada, right? It's it's just it goes back to being able to pause for a moment, back to that word pause, and realize the system that you're in and deciding do I want to be part of it or do I want to create my own path?

Jody Brooks 50:09

You've taken me beautifully to my next question. So I think we're there beginning to almost discuss how much of this is organizational and how much of it is as someone who works in various organizations, you must see that some are great and some are better, and maybe perpetuate that, like the one you described there, where the CEO says, I need you to go and speak to this person because I can see they're not okay and I can't afford to lose them, as opposed to the organizations that you go in and they say, We need you to get more out of these people.

Nicole Anderson 50:43

I primarily work with the organizations that understand that's important. They understand their people are a strategic advantage, maybe just don't know how to quite get there or need help. And yeah, it's a lot it's a much harder path, it's a bigger jump to go from a really kind of toxic culture to to all of a sudden everyone kind of treating their leaders like they matter and that they're the recognizing the strategic advantage that that they have. So who is it, right? Whose responsibility is it, the organization or the individual? It really is it is both. If I'm talking to an individual, I'll say it's it is both, and one can't change the other. So if I'm a individual, if I'm talking to an individual in an organization, and to your point earlier, there's this sense of I'm a victim, everything's happening to me, I know better, there's curiosity is just gone. There's a sense of what are you responsible for? What can you control? And start to bring some agency around that. Because yeah, absolutely. There's gonna be things that we can't control. There are gonna be people that make decisions that we don't like. That's great. It's gonna happen. It just is. So as soon as we start recognizing the value of going through your own process, going through your own work, understanding and reflecting, why did that actually bother me? So I didn't feel good in that meeting. And I've given you a real example. I'm I didn't feel good leaving this strategic planning meeting. And it was really easy for me to blame other people until I took a step back and said, Well, how was I showing up? What did I contribute? When I was upset, why? Why was I feeling that friction? And so it is the employees' responsibility to to do that. And it's the organization's responsibility to create an environment where employees can thrive and do their best work. Because without that, the customers aren't going to be happy, the products are gonna be crap, right? It's gonna be all fall apart. So it is both.

Jody Brooks 52:45

I think it's it is about uh each party taking ownership, like you say there as well, is not adopting a role of I'm powerless in this.

Nicole Anderson 52:53

Yeah.

Jody Brooks 52:54

Is I do have agency and also as well, I had a conversation in a podcast the other day where I said you can't expect organizations to change if you don't ask them to. So if all you're all gonna say that you have no ownership and sit there and say it's the organization and walk out the door, then it will never change. It's a dual thing where we both have to take ownership. However, there are occasions where we maybe need to make a decision and we have taken ownership. How would somebody know where actually I have to transition out of here because this is not my place anymore?

Nicole Anderson 53:35

That is a tough one to answer. I feel like that might be a really personal. It it depends on someone's values. I would always go there first. Where is there alignment or misalignment with values? And where are you energized or drained at the end of the day? And do a little bit of work. It doesn't take much time to start seeing some patterns when we're reflecting

Curiosity, Reverse Mentoring & Generational Wisdom

Nicole Anderson 54:00

on our day with those lenses, those two lenses.

Jody Brooks 54:02

Yeah. So you're really saying it's almost mechanics versus emotion. Is it like check the mechanics of it, the role, those kind of things, and then check in with your emotions again, pause on it and ask yourself questions about it rather than making a rash decision.

Nicole Anderson 54:22

Yeah. Emotions are really tricky, and I'm an emotional driven, I'm a feeler on the Myers Briggs. I my my thinking and feeling is definitely higher on the on the feeling. So I say this with love as a feeler, is that's something it took a while for me to get to this. When there's emotion, there's a couple things that's happening. The body is trying to tell us, it's just trying to communicate something to us. And when we don't listen to it, we don't listen to that, oh, that was a little tension here. Or somebody just did a little butterfly. Like, what is that about? When we don't don't do those things and we ignore them, then the larger emotions start to come out. So anger, tears, some of the bigger emotions, and I just use those in particular because those are two that get picked on a lot in organizations. You can't be angry and aggressive, you can't be, you can't cry. And so when those start to happen, people start to just shut down even more. So there's this sense of having to notice what is the emotion, notice it ideally before it starts to become a really big thing where you can't your mind is blocked, you can't see anything else, and and really just listening to what is the body saying. So yes, it isn't there's a both with the emotion, with that caveat around where to how to translate the emotion.

Jody Brooks 55:51

What do you think organizations how can organizations shift their thought processes allow for this better conditioned workspace for people? What's the key thing that they need to shift in their thinking?

Nicole Anderson 56:10

A lot of it goes back to curiosity again, both from the individual and the organization side. There is a phenomenon I hear a lot, which is this us versus them, leadership versus the people, right? And this there's a gap. And so getting curious and listening

Thriving vs Coping — Choosing Your Language Changes Everything

Nicole Anderson 56:30

is the number one best thing to do. One of the programs I love is reverse mentoring. So it's just a simple piece where I get executives connected with someone who is a completely different generation, different culture, different role, function, and get them talking. And it being really clear that the executive is not, or the senior leader is not the one mentoring the younger. It is the other way around. And it just takes a little bit of getting the making sure the senior leader doesn't take over and try to guide and give advice. But it's a really simple way just to create conversation in a different way in organizations. Again, one example only, but that listening and getting curious is one of the first things.

Jody Brooks 57:23

I'm glanced to the side to see the clock and realize that we are rapidly running out of time. I have a two more questions. So you mentioned a word, in fact, you mentioned two words earlier on, and I had another one of those moments in these conversations, like I do, and so I want to pose a question to you that came to me. Do you think that if we were to introduce the language of thriving in the workplace as opposed to coping in the workplace, that that would start to shift how success feels for people?

Nicole Anderson 58:02

I'm gonna say yes, with a caveat, right? Thriving may be a bit overused. So people have their own definitions of what does it mean to thrive. So the caveat is when organizations and individuals get clear on what does that look like, it it's going to be different, but there are gonna be signs when there's an organization that is where they have leaders that are thriving. And the signs are going to be there's healthy conflict, there's massive innovation, and people feel comfortable to share their thoughts without feeling like they're gonna get ripped a new one. So when those things are present or and when they really define what does thriving mean for them, then yeah, it can be really powerful. Now, if it's just a catchphrase, it's something that's thrown up on the wall, it's gonna just be a word on the wall.

Jody Brooks 58:51

I mean, I love that you say that. And I talk about it all the time. I see it's no good. You see it with so many companies. Corporate that I last worked for had lots of shiny values on posters and a whole booklet of them. But they are just shiny values on a wall unless you communicate how you live and breathe those and what they mean in action. And I think that maybe if companies had company principles as opposed to company values, because a principle is essentially how you live a value, then the world might be a bit a better place. This thing of the word coping and how much that feeds into that discussion that we had around the fear. Because the fear is that you can't say you're not coping. And so my question was more on this thriving narrative is that if we remove this element of I of coping, yeah, I'm coping with my job, I'm coping with the workload, I'm coping with all of these things, do we start to shift the fear narrative for individuals and for organizations?

Nicole Anderson 59:59

Yeah, that that's really interesting. The term coping does have this sense of negative connotation. And anytime we're looking at or words matter, how we frame things matters tremendously. So when we're talking about I just need to cope, there's a couple things that are happening. Our brain is creating this sense of survival mode. And when other people are hearing that word, there's a sense of panic that comes with it almost. And so there's a reactive defensive mechanism that starts to happen, which is totally normal. Now, I don't I want to be careful, like sometimes I wouldn't want us to just sugarcoat, just use the word thriving because it feels good and it's positive. The whole the risk of creating a toxic positivity kind of vibe or culture or language. We don't want to go to that end. But yeah,

Practical Advice for Redefining Success Today

Nicole Anderson 1:01:00

being aware of the language that we're using, and if we're talking about coping, and we're talking about what do I need to do to cope or how can I help my employees cope, you're already starting at the the lowest rung on the ladder.

Jody Brooks 1:01:13

For me, it's my NLP brain going, and how language sets up a narrative, and you're led beautifully into it there, is that when we use words like cope, they're also quite limiting because to cope is to m is to be at a certain level and to not go beyond it. And so I think you're quite right. I hate toxic positivity as well, in the same that I hate wellness washing and greenwashing and all of those things embed it. It should be a culture, it should be rich, it should be lived, it should live and breathe and it should be ever changing. You can't put it on a poster on a wall because if your company really is thriving, by the time you finish writing the paragraph, the paragraph will have changed. Because if you're really thriving, you'll have moved beyond the value before you have time to print the value off. And I think that's the lesson is that when we sometimes print those things and put them hard down, is in that moment we already limit ourselves. Talking about not limiting ourselves. So how for all of these midlifers listening and you talk about burnout shouldn't be the price of success? It shouldn't be seen as those things, and you've redefined success for yourself. What would be your advice to the people listening who are feeling some of the things that we've talked about are in those roles, not sure what their next move is, what would you say to them redesign success, maybe from models that they've got, which is next job, next thing, how do they go about redefining success in this moment?

Nicole Anderson 1:03:01

I think the first thing is you've got to find somebody to walk it with you. This is not we especially high performers feel like we have to just push through, do it on our own, and we've got to figure it all out. It's like the con closet concept. You may be really good at a lot of things, and it's still okay to ask for help. So I I would say that is the number one. You do not have to do this alone. Uh, and I see this especially as leaders get more and more higher

Connect with Nicole Anderson

Nicole Anderson 1:03:30

in their careers. Leadership is incredibly lonely the higher you get in an organization or a title. Uh, and so just first recognizing you don't have to do this alone. The second is create that space. We talked about pause and how important that is, the strategic uh advantage that can give you to pause. And it could just be take an afternoon off, go for a walk, sit on a park. I always go to nature because that's where I I personally feel most connected, that's where I feel most creative. Find your thing, do what's can it help you disconnect, put the phone away, turn off the notifications, get a journal, and just spend some time putting it on paper. I say often to get a white piece of printer paper, and that's where a lot of the work that some of the clients we start with our vision of success, and it starts with a blank sheet of white

Closing Seed Question: Your 80-Year-Old Self

Nicole Anderson 1:04:30

printer paper. You draw on it, you know, you can do all kinds of things, but to help get your brain thinking about things in a different way. And there's a number of techniques out there to get the brain started. So get help, take some time, take some space, and start noticing. Really genuinely, even if it's just a week or two, write down when you noticed your body reacted in a certain way. You don't have to do anything with it yet. Just notice it and write it

Jody's Closing Reflection

Nicole Anderson 1:05:00

down, and the patterns will start to emerge.

Jody Brooks 1:05:02

I'm sure there are listeners out there that still have questions. Where can people get in contact with you? And if there's an organization listening or a leader listening that wants to connect and discuss the work that you do, what is the best place for people to reach out and connect with you?

Nicole Anderson 1:05:21

Yeah, I I really love those conversations. Definitely reach out, even if you just need a a second set of eyes on something. LinkedIn is the best place to find me, Nicole Morrowanderson, and or you could just email Nicole at theKalogroup.

Jody Brooks 1:05:38

I will put all of that in the show notes below. So as always, the final question is if you could plant a seed in the minds of the listeners today that would grow slowly over time and bear fruit, what would that seed be, Nicole?

Nicole Anderson 1:05:58

I would ask a question about what your 80-year-old self would say to you, and what your seven-year-old self would say to you. And when you've spent some time with that, things start to get really clear.

Jody Brooks 1:06:12

I love that. I love that narrative of both ends of the spectrum. Nicole, before I sum up, I just want to say thank you so much. I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you for being vulnerable and showing uh midlifers that there is hope on the other side and that is completely normal. And I think probably giving people language to put to it today. It has been for me several light bulb moments, several little epiphanies in the conversation. So thank you very much for taking this time to spend with us today.

Nicole Anderson 1:06:50

It was my pleasure, and thank you for bringing this to the surface. It's such an important message.

Jody Brooks 1:06:55

I, as I've just said, there were so many moments in the conversation with Nicole today that have made me think that I will go away from today's show and plow over in my mind. I think some of the strongest things are this concept of transitioning. And that in fact that is what we do in the messy midlife. Is we transition our way from one thing to another. And there were so many similarities in much of our conversation today has been about the workplace and our work roles. But there's so many shared identities with what we feel in midlife outside of our work roles and in the roles that we do. And that point of transitioning, of not throwing it all up in the air, not running away from it, but catching your breath outside on the veranda, staring into nature, just taking that moment to notice and then plan and and transition towards something that feels like the success that you want to transition towards. Messy Midlife is as I always say, remember you're not broken, you're simply becoming something you were always meant to be. Fantastic. I will see you on the next episode. Take care. Thank you for spending this time with me on Messy Midlife. If this episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who might need to hear it today. You can find the show notes below and more resources at authenticcoaching.org. Just a little joke reminder, Messi Midlife is good for information reflection and personal health. Until next time, take good care of yourself. And remember, we thought it might be mental, but it's not a crisis, it's a calling.