Midlife Wake-Up Call

Jody Brooks 0:00

You're not falling apart, you're waking up. If you're somewhere between 35 and 65, life feels like it's cracking open. The identity you built no longer fits, and the future feels terrifying. Nobody around you seems to get it. Welcome, I'm Jodie Brooks, and this is Messy Midlife. Because this isn't a crisis, it's a calling to connect. Welcome, Messy Midlifers.

Meet Hannah Kerman

Jody Brooks 0:28

Answering the call to connect today is my guest, Hannah Kerman, international speaker, founder of Brainshift, certified brain-based coach, and author on leadership and mental health. Her path was not linear. She once moved to London to chase a dream of becoming an actress, then returned to Sweden to become a mother at 23. She built a career in telecoms until the IT bubble burst in 2002, forcing a reset that took her to the Volvo group, where she had the perfect career on paper. Travel, culture, influence, impact. Yet something was missing. Not work, but belonging. To avoid that feeling, she kept herself busy, even filling Friday afternoons with meetings and convincing herself that she was in charge of not being a part of the team's FICA. When in truth she was trying to outrun the basic need of human connection. Eventually, her body called it quits and she ended up on sick leave for six months. That became the turning point that reshaped how she sees leadership. We don't just lead with strategy, we lead with our nervous systems, she says. Since then, life has deepened that lesson, a family breakup and rebuilding that, and later becoming a mother again at 47 with embryo number 19. Hannah, welcome to the messy midlife and thank you for answering the call to connect.

Hanna Curman 2:00

Thank you.

Jody Brooks 2:01

So I am so looking forward to today. And we've had a bit of a chat beforehand, so got a great flow and show. So I always like to start in the messy

The Meeting That Broke Her

Jody Brooks 2:13

middle and that critical turning point from the perfect career on paper to that moment your body called time and burnout hit, causing you to take six months off sick to recover. What was the journey that led to that point?

Hanna Curman 2:30

Well, it was a journey, of course, but I can tell you about the specific situation that happened, and that is now 20 years ago, more or less 20 years ago. And and I remember it still as if it was yesterday. I was then, just as you said, in my perfect fit in my profession. I was traveling around the world, I was meeting people, I love meeting different cultures, and I and I also had the possibility to influence and to understand new technology and create. You know, I was really, really doing what I love to do. And then I am a person that that also is curious about the futures. I always had new ideas. Okay, why don't we do it in this way or that way? And I had this brilliant idea, and of course I wanted my manager's approval to go ahead with that. So I was preparing for this meeting. Um, and I was neglecting my myself, my family, Fridays, weekends to prepare for this meeting. And I remember it so well. It was a Monday morning, December Monday morning, and December Monday morning in in Gothenburg, Sweden.

Jody Brooks 3:54

I know how cold it is in December in Gothenburg.

Hanna Curman 4:01

Cold and dark and windy, and I had I was so prepared and I was dressed up for this meeting, and I went to the building, and there was a few things before me on the agenda, and then eventually it was time for me to stand up. And then my manager stood up and said, I don't have any more time. It was like everything inside of me was just cleared up. And I rushed out in my car and and took my laptop with me, and I was sitting there, I was just fumbling, and and and the tears were just pouring down the the the cheeks. And I really did not know what to do. I just wanted to run away. And that was a starting point. That was really a starting point for a new chapter in my life.

Jody Brooks 5:03

Yeah, I kind of I empathise fully with that. You know, it was as you were talking about it, I and I'm sure listeners will, that I've been in that situation where you've poured your heart and soul into something and you care about it like it's a part of you. And I think people don't get that it just rips you apart in that moment, and then you almost feel like you try and correct yourself, a bit of kind of shame almost isn't really like for me. You feel like you've messed up in that moment, and the reality is they messed up, but you feel like you've messed up, and it strips you bare in that moment. So I completely empathize with so from from there then, what was the progress to this kind of burnout and going out for six months?

Hanna Curman 5:50

I mean, I started my career

Busyness and Belonging

Hanna Curman 5:54

quite young. I was uh working international when I was just 28 or something like that, and before that I was in the IT telecom, and I was a project manager, I was always on the edge. And I also got got my first daughters very young. I was 2 just b 23 when I gave birth to the to the first one. I was all I I had my businesses on on the side of uh my employment, I was social, I always had things to do, I was, you know, everywhere because I wanted to show that I was belonging. And I wanted to be part of everything. Really, this with the fear of missing up, right? I wanted to be everywhere. Yeah, the FOMO. It was so strong with me for me there. Uh so so I I was pushing myself to be on the edge, and and it was not that I didn't feel it then because I loved what I was doing. I did not only like my job, I loved my job, and I loved my my life, but I did not take the time to rest. And one of the things that I I also then found was that this with the belonging that we were talking about, or you you mentioned there in the introduction that being a good girl um always taking my own path that has also been that I'm strong on my own. But we are not really strong when we don't seek support and and when we don't belong to someone, then we are lonely. So so that was that was also something that ended up in this. I mean, I as as as I said, I was traveling around around the world and but I was the only one in my management team that were international, were working international. The other ones were in in the office, and so they didn't they they they were not asking for me when I was not there because they just took for granted that I was somewhere. If I was not in Brazil, I was probably in the US or maybe in France or somewhere else.

Jody Brooks 8:13

When you travel, I did in my role, I travelled an awful lot, and it's a very surreal world. And then listening to that, then you're craving belonging, but then you avoided belonging. And as you were saying it, then I was thinking, oh my god, I you know I didn't realise till this conversation, but I did the same thing. I spent so much time in my car, in hotel rooms and on planes that when I was in a team environment, I I couldn't cope. I'd shut down, I can't do this. Like almost like trained myself to be in my own bubble. Is that kind of when you say about the belonging there that you kind of then were like, I can't do the belonging?

Hanna Curman 8:50

I would say that I I had a far hard time to find my spot in the belonging. Um usually when you are in in a community, any kind of community, you have your position. I mean, and and then I'm not not talking about the structural position but the biological position, the the human interaction positioning. And when you are not there all the time, it's hard to say, okay, who am I in this community? Who am I in this group? Who am I in this team? So I think that that just understanding that as well, to to always seek your spot and and search for your spot, that is what really take took my energy anyway. So the the busyness that becomes

Calendar Full as Armour

Hanna Curman 9:45

a coping strategy is that because then if you're busy you don't need to be in that situation where you feel you don't belong. So if I actually take that opportunity away by being busy, then I don't have to face it. Yeah, of course. Of course. I mean you are you we are all looking for being as high up in the hierarchy as possible and and in the environment that we are living in, the higher up in the in the hierarchy you get, the busier you are supposed to be. So of course, if you keep yourself as busy as possible, then you are somebody. If if I don't know how many uh of the listeners here and you who recognize that when you have an empty calendar, gosh, that is scary. I mean it's so good to have an a full calendar and and and also a full weekend where where b because also at this time of in in my life I I I had so much social life. So when I was going to book a new uh dinner party or something like that, that was like four, five, six months away.

Jody Brooks 11:02

When you say that, again, I just had this the kind of thing is, but when I, you know, left the corporate world and my job to set up my coaching practice, that was actually one of the things that I struggled with the most was this diary. And and so I had to learn to put stuff in my diary because you know, like you're quite self-sufficient at working, but you know, sure like you, I was very used to appointments, be here, flights, this kind of thing. So I kind of got given that structure, and then you go to working for yourself from your desk at home, building a coaching practice, and essentially, you know, it's hard work if there's any any coaches out there. I think sometimes it looks like we've got a blissful life. It's the best job in the world, however, there is a lot to it, and building that whole thing, and so I would just look at this empty diary and think, oh my god, and so I actually now book appointments with myself, so that's a good point. So I would put like an appointment with myself in my diary to give me the structure to show up at my desk that day and to do that specific thing. Because if I don't do it, that staring into that void kind of thing, and I think interestingly, there is a bit that plays into the belonging that you were talking about because you you know, the job I had before, and like I said, it's a double-edged sword, and I'm sure it was for you because you're very much turning up, you're performing a role. I used to say it was like jazz hands, a lot of mine was on stage presenting, and so you know, you'd get off a flight, you'd have got up at two o'clock in the morning, get off a flight at 8 a.m., go straight to the venue, and then roll yourself out jazz hands, like you know, this is the best thing you're ever gonna have seen, like this tap dance, do the schmoozing, that's it, make the conversation. And I don't know whether you did, but sometimes I used to have almost out-of-body experiences because I was such a performative person in that role, and so it does look like you're surrounded by this belonging, but you're actually not, you're just in that performing a role kind of thing, and so it is very weird, but you still had that sense of connection, and so that was the other thing when I first started coaching, and it's how I ended up volunteering because I need to go and do something with human connection, so I went and volunteered one day a week to fill that void. Could you walk us through this biological side of it that you talk about with

Burnout in the Body

Hanna Curman 13:40

your nervous system and the the biological side of the effects and then how that affected you as a leader in that role? Well, back then, of course, what I the first thing that I did recognize was this extreme tiredness. I mean, I was sleeping for weeks, uh extremely tired, and and I could take myself out of bed. I do know that there are people out there that are not even able to take themselves out of bed, but I could do that. I also found myself being fluffy, you know, that it looked like I was not healthy. I was not healthy, even though I was I was running the orientering, so I I was I was extremely well trained and and had a physics, like really good physics, but at the same time that my body was not in a good shape. Uh so that is also something that that we need to consider that pushing our bodies when we are tired is not good for us either. I mean it's it's one thing to do it when you when you are in a balance, but not when you are in in a stress situation. Fatigue. Stop remembering things. It's it's like I'm I'm laughing a little bit now because I'm thinking about it's the same thing when you when you are breastfeed feeding, you have the same kind of reaction. And you you you you forget things. You forget things and and you have a hard time to to um yeah to understand what people are saying to you. But it's it's a it's a kind of similar reaction that that you really narrow your own thinking and and start and stop to care about uh things that you cared about. We have other other things like that like the um you don't really care for having sex. I mean, and and that is one of the most essential things that we have in our relationships. So so it it's so many things that are connected to this with being burned out or stressed or or whatever we want to call it, um it impacts so many different parts in our lives.

Jody Brooks 16:02

You know, you touch on something there as well, and you know, and I always say it is that burnout's a word that's thrown around a lot these days, but if you've actually been there at burnout, it is serious, like you're saying there, and you know, as you're describing it there, it's that element of your body's gone into survival mode, and it's not that you don't care, but it doesn't have the capacity to care, so it's narrowing your field of vision more and more and more, and like you say that, and it's no intimacy, no nothing, because all of those things just are things that your nervous system is going, that could push me over the edge. Like so it's like you know, it's a self-preservation thing, and I think like you say there, the extreme fatigue of it. You know, interestingly for me, you say about the memory. I kept forgetting where I'd park my car. So I would park my car, go and do a meeting, come out and be like, was it this street? And and and end up in full panic attack, thinking and then because you're tired, you're not rational, and you start, and that's what I also noticed is I did irrational things or you know, I acted really irrationally to simple things because to my body they didn't feel simple anymore. I went from, oh, you can't find the car to that's it, you're trapped, and you're gonna have to call the police, and and then and how are you ever gonna, you know, like it just is because you're in that kind of whole, like complete survival thing.

Hanna Curman 17:40

Yeah. But what one of the yeah, one of the things that I'm thinking about there as well, as as as I I have my my daughters, and I didn't I didn't realize it back then, but what they told me when they grow up a little bit and and I did a huge d uh shift in my life then they also said, yeah, but mama, you we were always afraid of you. And to hear that, that that your own children are afraid of you I mean it's it's really you should be there, you should be their their safeguard and not be the one that is is always angry and always screaming, always pushing and and questioning why they haven't done what you expect them to do. So it's it's also this where where the where we put our focus and and unfortunately I do believe that we too often give our anger or whatever we want to call it to the ones that that really don't are the ones that should take it.

Jody Brooks 18:54

I mean that leads us beautifully on to my next question, which is to unpack that, you know, other than the career turning point,

When Home Life Collapsed

Jody Brooks 19:02

you know, was there also a messy middle in your personal life which you're alluding to there? And you know, what were the similarities and and what was different?

Hanna Curman 19:13

And that was a few years, uh few years later. Um, if this was uh back in 2006-2007 when I had the first burnout, which was really connected to the way that I I was treating myself and and showing up at work. Then I had a uh crisis, a family crisis. My uh ex-husband came home, or I came home because I I was in India for 10 days. And uh when I left, I we were out having a dinner, and I said to him, you know, I I don't really feel well. I it it's something that is is empty inside me. And he said, Yeah, but Hannah, I'm here, I'm here for you. And then I came back ten days later, and he wanted me to come home and uh was sitting down, it was in the afternoon, and then he said, Hannah took a decision. We are no longer a wow so it was a very hard way to break a marriage. It I mean it was more than 20 years marriage, and um that part that that really, really hit me and my daughters because I I got yeah, I I got to be I got left uh uh on my own together with my two daughters, and one of them she was living in another city, she was um in uh high school in another city, so I could not be with her and and of course she needed my support. And then the other one, she was very fragile, and and she was a fragile girl from from the beginning. And uh it really showed up now in the teenage years that she was extremely fragile. So there I was together with one child uh in another city, not really understanding what happened and and so on, another child that was uh extremely child fragile and started to take drugs, started to be out of school, started to, you know, everything uh that you could think of. And I had to manage all that on my own. Uh so that was another kind totally different kind of of crisis, of course.

Jody Brooks 21:43

I mean, that must be so incredibly tough as well. Like you say, it was an entirely different story ten days previous, and then you come home and your entire world is ripped from under you, and you're then left there, now trying to balance what. Career, parenting, etc. And I would say that that must also, as well, that identity piece in there is that like, who am I? That's a huge identity shift right in midlife at that point when we're already starting to question who am I, what does this look like now? And then you come home from a trip and someone goes, I'm gonna completely turn it all on its head. How did you navigate that? Because there's that double edge as well, is that you're trying to be there for your daughters, it's a form of grief when you're grieving your marriage, but at the same time trying to help your daughters grieve their family, their their father, the disruption. How do you navigate that?

Hanna Curman 22:49

It was tough, I must admit, it was the toughest time in my life, and I hope that I will never ever experience something like that again. However, I did many times I was extremely happy with the previous situation

Tools for the Storm

Hanna Curman 23:08

that I had. Because during the previous situation, when I was home for six months during on a burnout, and I did really study what was it that happened and so on, that gave me a lot of tools that I now could utilize in this personal crisis. So even though days, weeks, probably months, when I was when I was extremely angry and devastated, as you said, and and so on, I could also put myself on the from and look at look at the situation from the outside and say, okay, what is it really that is happening here? Why is he behaving the way that he's behaving? Why am I behaving the way I'm behaving? And how can I support my my daughters in the best way? Um and of course the best way I could uh was to be as present as I could for them, even though I'm just human.

Jody Brooks 24:15

You talk about how your reactive patterns affected not only your health but of those around you and particularly your daughters. Is that at that particular point? And are you talking about how you're reacting to the situation?

Hanna Curman 24:30

Both I would say. At that point, I I already had the understanding of the importance um

Rewriting Priorities

Hanna Curman 24:38

of being present with my children and be there for them. And I had also done a s a shift in in how I prioritised things. Let's go back to 20 years ago then. Uh then I would definitely say that I would prioritize my work first. And then was my children, and then was my relation, and then it was myself. It's always us at the bottom, always us at the bottom. Yeah. But but but during those the the shift that I did to 2006, I started to prioritize in another way. The first thing was prioritize myself, and and there's a reason for prioritizing yourself first, and that is to be able to be strong enough for my children, and then it is the relationship, and then it is the work. So so it's it's it's really to to shift the prioritization as well, and and I'm sure that showed up both in the way that I looked at myself, even though, yes, of course, the first weeks after this and and so on, I I I blamed myself, it was my fault, I was not beautiful enough, I was not present enough, I was not good enough, you know, all those things. But after I I had put that aside and and saw that no, it has nothing to do with me, it has to do with our relationship. That we are not good for each other, then I could that's a phenomenal place to get to, because in that there's a a not apportioning blame, there's a responsibility, and I always say if you can get to a point where there's an element of responsibility, I'm not saying you didn't play your part, but I I no longer need to blame, so I can leave it here now and I can move away from it. And it sounds like almost your burnout equipped you for this. Would you say that there was an element that you lent into it? Is that almost the burnout becomes a gift at this point because you were almost pre-prepared for this fight essentially that you had. So for sure, for sure I I would say that, and and I I do believe that that that is the way that we should treat all our crises, because we will go through crisis, all of us, in in uh from time to time in life. And and if we treat them as a learning learning situation or learning time, and we give ourselves the ability or the possibility to reflect and see what was it really that happened, then we can take it as a learning. And and I do want to say here as well, then then um as I did say that one of my daughters she she actually did not really want, she she she tried to take her life not once, but three times. And she turned that, it took a few years, but she turned that into a gift as well. So she is now working in schools. I mean, when when she told me that Mama, I'm going to apply for the

Turning Pain Into Purpose

Hanna Curman 27:45

U university and and become a teacher, and I said, Are you going to be a teacher? Are you going going to be in school? Because she she could not go, she could not could not go into a school, build a school building for many, many years. But she said that yeah, but you know, if there was one single adult that had that experience that I have when I was ten years old, maybe I'd not have to go through what I want went through. And and uh just having that with you, and so I I'm I'm bringing it up because I I think I I'm so proud of her. I'm so proud of those my my daughters or all my kids. But but but really to to utilize what you have gone through and and do something good with it.

Jody Brooks 28:34

It's phenomenal, you know, that turning pain into power, and I I think it's incredibly healing to lean into it. Um I'm someone who also tried to take their life in their twenties, and you know, now I do the same thing and talk openly about it. I take my hat off to her the first few times I did it, it wasn't easy, but I think that there is something very healing in it when you do it. There's something that takes that from being an incredible pain into an incredible power, and and you're kind of blessed with an insight, and and so it's lovely to hear that. And when I talk about it for your daughter to have done the same, when I talk about it, I say to people, I promise you, one day, if you just focus one day, this won't feel the way it feels now, and it will probably become your superpower. So, hats off to her, she has my admiration, and I fully understand that journey. So, after all of this, though, there's a bit of a happy ending. Okay, so tell me then, you know, as we come to this bit and kind of wrapping up the messy bit, but hopefully on a nicer note. Becoming a mother again at 47, and you know, and in there as well, you know, like you say embryo number 19. So, you know, that in itself takes a huge amount of emotion and resilience. So tell me all about that because it's a happy ending.

Hanna Curman 30:08

It is a happy ending, and and his living and kicking, and he's eight years old now. And well, yeah, I met I met my my

Motherhood Again at 47

Hanna Curman 30:17

spouse. Um it was um it was only six months after uh the divorce. So it was quite quite uh short of time than uh after and and of course he when I met him, it was in the middle of this messy time that I had, and and he's he's much younger than I am. He is 15 and a half years younger than I am. So it it was not an easy relationship to start with, and not an easy decision. So we started up started with the first year with more or less just playing together and and having fun together. Then after a year, I say that you know, if if uh we should continue with this,

Meeting a New Partner

Hanna Curman 30:58

and I do hope that you want to continue with this, but then we need to go into a more serious dialogue and discussion. And I really don't want to see you not having any children because he's the most wonderful father I have ever met. And uh so that was the starting, and and so we tried um to get uh pregnant. Uh we did get pregnant, but I got a miscarriage. And then we started

Trying for a Baby

Hanna Curman 31:26

with the IVF, and it took years and years and years. And I said to my doctor that, hey, I I think that I think it has to do with my immune system because everything looked good. You know, when you are in this situation, you they I'm well searched by a lot of doctors, and they all say the same thing. Oh, well, everything looks perfect, and and all those embryos, they are so awake and they are really, really good embryos. But my my body pushed them away. And I said, I think it has to do with the immune system due to all the stress that I've been put through during my previous years. And eventually I found a clinic and we did a first try, and then after that they said, Hey Hannah, I think it has to do

IVF and Immune Clues

Hanna Curman 32:19

with your immune system. I said, Yeah. I can agree to that. So then then I was uh I I I got um a new kind of treatment from them. And here he is now, Julius, and uh he's just adorable. And uh of course that that was also a starting point of a new life, a new way of of uh being, acting, reacting reacting, yeah, as as well. I I actually reacting as well, but children are children, right? And they know how to push your boundaries and which buttons to to how they should trigger you. But I can see myself now be able to breathe and just sit down and say, hey, what is it? What's really that you want to say. So we have a a totally other kind of relation than I or and I am a totally different kind of mother than I I was with my daughters, and um yeah, so it's a really happy ending.

Jody Brooks 33:23

Well, mothers and sons though, as well. That's a whole uh that's a different I don't know any male that isn't really like a

Motherhood Reset at 47

Jody Brooks 33:30

mummy's boy to some extent. I think it is a very special relationship. That is a huge amount there, from workplace burnout to those identity shifts with marriage and to becoming a mother again at 47, which is phenomenal. I think that's a good time for us to pause for a few moments, catch our breath, and then we can move on into Hannah now. Before we keep going, I want to invite you into something a little more personal. If Messy Midwife is speaking to you, you don't have to walk through this season alone. You can join the authentic life community. If that sounds like what you need, come join us at authenticcoaching. Okay, let's get back to today's episode. Welcome back. So I always say that the messy middle is often where transformation begins, and I think you alluded to it in that kind of bit about the burnout and how that already transformed you and changed your career path and equipped you for that next bit of your messy midlife, the personal messy midlife. And in that, you talk about being a brain-based coach and the biology and the behaviour. I'd really love you to unpack that for me as a coach. I'm intrigued on the brain-based coach and and how that informs your work now.

Hanna Curman 35:13

I took my first coaching certificate or diploma in 2006, and already then I I I was utilizing a lot of uh NLP and Hurolinguistic Programming in my coaching sessions. But I didn't really understand why. I I I could see that it it's uh what happened and that it was good, but I didn't really understand the the uh uh systematic or what happened in our bodies. So in two and and then in in uh at the end of it

Brain-Based Coaching Path

Hanna Curman 35:47

was probably 2018-2019 when I started to to get more and more interested in neuroscience and what that is, and what that how that impacts our way of taking decisions and being and so on. So I took a uh certification in 2020 in brain-based coaching, and that really gave me a deeper understanding and knowledge about why I had done things in in a certain way. And just taking this as an example always to seek permiss permission, um to make sure that people are safe. Not only when we are talking about psychological safety, when we which I I love to hear that more and more people or more and more companies, organizations are focusing on psychological safety. However, what I see is that they miss out the deeper understanding. They are kind of just swimming on the surface and saying that we are allowed to speak up and say whatever we want to do.

Jody Brooks 36:54

I mean, it's a great they always throw away words on a shiny poster until you actually turn that into how we show up. And I think that's the problem. There's there is a lot of good intention out there, but that good intention is a shiny value on a wall. But you need to work out how how are you gonna live those values on a daily basis. It's one thing to talk about psychological safety, it's another thing to create it.

Hanna Curman 37:22

It is, it is really, and and and that is where where the neuroscience comes in to understand what is it that we are wired to do. Uh, I mean, our nervous system is here to support us and to support us to stay alive. And and just understanding

Psychological Safety in Practice

Hanna Curman 37:39

that part that our brain is wired to keep us alive. And the easiest way to keep us alive and that is to stay out of threat, right? So the the question is what is it that is threatening around me? And we are always constantly scanning for threats and and hardwired to scan for threats. And so so when I'm when I'm working with brain-based coaching or working with coaching, I'm always starting with spotting the signals. What kind of signals do you have? What kind of triggers do you have? And then decode them to say, okay, where do they where did they come from? Because it might not even be your triggers, it can be your ancestors' triggers. We know for a fact today that our genes remembers more or less seven generations.

Jody Brooks 38:30

I didn't know it was seven generations. I've kind of always thought there must be some imprint. This is gonna sound really weird, but my dog, my labrador, that I look at, and if you've ever if you're a dog owner or anything, there is so much about a dog that is instinct, okay, that you think and particularly when you go from breed to breed to breed, like this imprint is passed down. She's a Labrador, she's instinctively retrieves. Now, I just remember when she was a puppy, I put a ball down in front of her. She'd never seen a ball, but instantly she knew what to do with a ball. I I took her to the beach, she jumped in the water and swam

Threat Scanning and Triggers

Jody Brooks 39:13

straight away. And so I never knew it was that seven generations, but I've always thought to myself, we must be imprinted with some of this stuff more than we actually really know.

Hanna Curman 39:23

Yeah, of course we are. I mean, that's the way though that we have kept us alive. Why should I eat the berry that killed my ancestors? I mean, it it's the same. So it's it's always always going back to why do I what what is it that I'm trying to avoid? What threat is it that I'm trying to avoid? And by understanding that and decoding that, we can direct it. So we can direct, okay, do I want to keep this or do I want to get rid of it? And do I want to to um to put put something else in in the front line instead? So it's it's uh understanding the patterns and the the how our neurosystem either supports us, it will support us to stay alive, but it might also put boundaries on us, saying that might be that that could be dangerous. Don't don't go that path. Just go back to this with that we was that we spoke about before that having me having setting up meetings on Friday afternoons to avoid the discomfort of not belonging.

Jody Brooks 40:25

I mean, that's a perfect I I love how you say that because that is a perfect example. I've just sat here, I'm blown away, because it is that whole thing of actually you want belonging, so going to the meeting would deliver that, but at the same time, you're not going because your subconscious is trying to protect you because it sees it as a sense of fear. There's a phrase I use all the time, and I say the problem is our brain doesn't understand whether it's a sabre-toothed tiger or a Tuesday. And so, is that kind of what you're talking to there? Is that it just senses a feeling, and if it's enough of a feeling to trigger it, it will trigger it.

Hanna Curman 41:04

Yeah, yeah. So understand what is it? That is what is it in our modern society that we see as threats? And and it is this with belonging, it has to do with with certainty, it has to do with with a lot of different things. Um and and and also working with with the different uh transmitters and hormones that we have in our body. How do we get engagement? Well, we get engagement by releasing dopamine, but not the kind of dopamine that we get out of drugs and and success stories. We to release dopamine that are the ones that are kind of constantly leaping out as you do progress. That is the that is the dopamine that we should look for to get engagement and see that we want to go to get going. And and how can we how can we make sure that we feel safe? Well, what kind of of uh environment should we have to get more oxytocin? I see that you have a candle lit. I also see that you have your plant, your green plant there. Is the reason for that? I mean, that that releases oxytocin, and we can use that in the business environment as well. So just understanding all those different things that can either support us or hold us back.

Jody Brooks 42:23

When you say that there, like with the dopamine, it's one of the things that I think is maybe a bit of a scourge of modern day society. It's where doom scrolling comes from, because that doom scrolling, but it doesn't give you what you're talking about there is quality dopamine, and it doesn't follow it with oxytocin, and it doesn't follow it with serotonin. I watch people sometimes and I'm like, it doesn't matter how far you go. First of all, you'll never reach the bottom, and even if you did, what you're looking for is not going to be there. So walk away from it.

Neurochemistry and Engagement

Jody Brooks 42:56

But the problem is that you know, dopamine is incredibly addictive, and if you can just do that quickly and flip, and then it's that thing you say there, then what we've been subjected to in that environment is if you're doom scrolling and you're seeing stuff that's trig it's triggering stress, then you're shifting yourself into a whole other zone. And I I love that there that you say about you know, in workplaces we can create environments that actually trigger, you know, that oxytocin and that serotonin. Jay Shetty one of his quotes is environment brings energy, and I'm a huge believer in it. My studio here, my study upstairs, they're very different, but they have their own energy, and when I go in there, it triggers that in me. I never really thought about it until you said it, but there is an element of when I go in my study that I do get oxytocin and serotonin because there's a comfort and a connection and a compassion in my study. So I think that's really, really um Interesting. And so how does that feed into then your brain shift method that you've created? And how can people use that to start navigating, particularly the listeners, messy midlife, where it all feels like it's coming at them, and to not be reactive essentially, I suppose?

Hanna Curman 44:22

Working a lot and talking a lot about presence under pressure. How can we get more presence? And then we need to understand, going back to this, first of all, understanding our triggers and then decode them and then direct them. So I'm working with a front within the brain shift umbrella, I would say it is, because I have different kinds of programs within the brain shift. But I'm working with a framework that is called the clarity chain, where we work with this spot, decode, direct. Always do that. And another thing that I'm always doing is we have two sides of everything. I mean, let's let's let's take it from there, from this angle. What we want to do is that we want to evolve, we want to develop, we want to increase, we something we want to go ahead, right? That that is what we want to do with our businesses. And to do to be able to do that, we need strategies, we need um KPIs, we need processes, we need all those kind of things that makes the business tangible and we can see what's happening. And then we have the culture and the behavioral part, which is the human side. And what I do with with the brain shift methodology, I I work with both sides. We can see it as a zipper. When we are closing a zipper, we need two sides of the zipper, otherwise, it will not make any sense at all. Another thing that we need to do is that we need to close it together. The teeth needs to go together

Brain Shift Method Framework

Hanna Curman 45:56

like this to be able to be strong. What many organizations and leaders, as myself, has done as well, is that I either work, okay, today we have strategy day, and today we have the day with cultures, and then we we believe that we can work with them and on separate parts. What I want to do, or what I do in the brain shift methodology, is that I make sure that this zipper is close together. So we are working with them together and the teeth are are kind of fit there and take it step by step. Because when you have closed it once and you have done it in a in a good way, then you can open and close it several times. And that is really what we need to do.

Jody Brooks 46:37

I mean, I I love that, you know, as someone who you know also was in that environment. And I'm just smiling there because I sat in meetings, and when you said that today we're having a strategy day. And when I first went into the when I first went into the corporate world, and I think me being me, you know, I'm probably all about the culture. You know, I have my own business and I won awards, and it was about the culture. I look back now and I was probably a bit ahead of my time. It was a carbon neutral business in 2010, and it was all about my team and the culture. And I always said the finance is not our product, the product is something else. And that was my huge belief. If we focus on the product, and my team, it was a service industry, so my team are the most important cog in this. So if I get the culture right, the finance will take care of itself, and it did. And so then when I went to the corporate world, I obviously was all in, you know, in induction, you get the shiny brochure and the values, and like we do all of this and everything. And then I'd sit in a meeting, and there'd be something so contradictory to what was one of the values or the culture. I remember one being entrepreneurial spirit, and I in this meeting said, you know, like, but we could do it like this. This is where the marketplace is going, and this is what it's asking for. And it was such a good business case, and probably a little bit like you were talking about earlier on, you know, they may as well have stabbed me in the heart. And I just remember the response being Yeah, but we don't do it like that here. That's we've never done it like that. And I said, But I thought we had entrepreneurial spirit. And they said, Yeah, we do. And my response was clearly we don't. Because entrepreneurial spirit, that is the essence of it, to not do what everybody else is doing, to take the risk to do the new thing. And so it was really joyous of you in that moment. It was a real, oh my god, like I'm gonna go and work in a company you've dealt with, of that meshing together. And I suppose it goes back to what I was saying there about it not being a shiny poster, but how do we live this out? How does it exist in our KPIs? How does it exist in the the ways that we do them that they should be two things? That's a very, very beautiful thing, and I suppose I don't know, like you as a coach, but me as a coach, that's certainly when I do values pieces with clients. Like I say to them, these are the things that you are going to live out every day in every situation. Then you know it's not a worksheet that we're gonna put in a folder. Every day you're gonna live out these values, and they will become your strongest guiding principle in everything.

Hanna Curman 49:33

I I just learned that that that you're yeah that you say bring this up with the values because that is also one of the things coming back to be being the best version of yourself. That it that is really when you know your own values. And that those values are they might not be the same as the organization and company values, but they need to be able to go together. And too often I also see that that you don't really talk about the company values, but then connecting them to your personal value. Because if if they if they don't go together, then you will burn out yourself because you will not work according to your own truth.

Jody Brooks 50:15

And I think it's very interesting you say that because for me I had a turning point where I then created an exit strategy or but I went back so that I didn't implode my world essentially, which was very unusual for me. I'd been somebody that normally would just go, that's it, I'm done, walk out the door. But I was like, Okay, I'm not gonna do it this time. I'm gonna implement a strategy that takes me where I want to be. And the only reason I could do that was what you say there, is that once I was clear on my values, it changed how I showed up and it gave me boundaries that meant that I could show up and keep a distance and not do that whole bit where art felt like it was personal, like that people were personally doing things to me. Then I could decide, well, actually, which of these values are negotiable and which are not negotiable, you know, and and so the only reason I could return was because of that, is that I learned how my values and talking to you's been amazing because I'm seeing how that also stopped me being reactive. Because up until that point, I was reactive. I was known as the person that would stand up and say that in the meeting. And then, you know, after my moment where I took time out and I went back, I then was so anchored in who I was that I didn't feel threatened. And so I could enter that environment and and understand, well, the reason you're triggered right now is because there's no integrity in

Values and Workplace Integrity

Jody Brooks 51:53

this. So I don't need to defend it, I don't need to get involved, I just need to to hold back.

Hanna Curman 52:01

I think Yeah, yeah, I love that you're saying that. Yeah. And then for your family and and friends, and then it worked.

Jody Brooks 52:22

You know, and then eventually I knew when it had changed so much that I couldn't show up anymore. So I was like, now it is time to implement the final part of the exit strategy because this journey has done its journey. And I think a lot of the time as well, what changed for me is like it's not easy being a boss. I've been a boss. Okay, and I think sometimes when we have these conversations, it sounds like we're down on companies and down on leaders, and I think from being in the corporate world, I see how challenging it is, and you're trying to get a thousand pieces to fit in a jigsaw puzzle and make one picture, and that's a huge challenge. And I take my hat off to any organization that does that, and certainly organizations that work with people like you that recognize the value in it. But I was so angry because I thought this company of 150 countries, second largest in its industry globally, was gonna change just for me. And I think we do. I I was angry at my boss, I was angry at the director, I was angry at all these people because I took it personally because I'd never checked how I was showing up. I suppose going back to what we discussed before, it's that responsibility piece. Is I always say to clients now, but how are you showing up? I'm not saying they're the best employer in the world, but we can't control that. But what we can control is how you show up, and I think then it's the responsibility of the companies to create a culture, like you say, where it's psychologically safe to show up as you are and not as a curated version. I wanna because we're so short of time and I could talk to you for hours, um, but there is one other thing that I wanted you to touch on that I really found interesting in the piece that you're now doing around AI, which is massive. I'm a lover of AI, but there's a huge, huge fear out there. I wrote a blog article about AI and about people's fear and where I believe it really sits. And you talk about human-first AI, and I'm going to allude to the fact that you're you think there are many positive things to AI, but could you unpack that a little bit? Because I know tons of listeners feel like AI is coming for their job.

Hanna Curman 54:52

I will not take the jobs. Um, but if you are able to utilize our AI tools and agents and assistants or whatever is out there in a good way, you will be able to take market shares. So I I think it's it just understanding that that AI it's it's not our enemy, it's our friend. And and then also when when I'm talking about AI, and and and I'm I am only talking about it from a psychological perspective. So I'm not a technician, I'm not an engineer, I'm I would don't take me for that. But what what what I what I see is that when I started to use let's just say a chat GTP, when I started to use ChatGTP, it was like, okay, I I had this question, can I give can you give me an answer? And I got the answer. And then I started that that was not really a good answer. And and then I started to chat with the with my chatbot. And after a while, when when I realized, wait a minute. I challenge my chat agent, I also want the chat agent to start to challenge me. That is when I can increase my connation. But I do see that too many, just as you started to say, that there are so many saying that AI will take our jobs. That is that depends on how you are utilizing it. But if you want if you really see it as your thinking partner, that also makes you to be able to, you need to be really on the edge. You cannot take everything that comes from your AI agent as a reality or truth. You can take it and and uh start to elaborate around it to make your thinking, to to take your thinking to another level. That is when we get the best out of it. So and and and just to conclude that a little bit, I mean we we can have an episode just talking about this, but but but what we see, what one one thing that I I find extremely scary is that we we have seen that our prefrontal cortex, which is the part that is is our thinking brain, if we should simplify it extremely. We have we have created new or or increased the cognition through the generations. But what

Human-First AI Mindset

Hanna Curman 57:14

we actually see now is that it is shrinking because it is like a nussle. We need to we need to use it to get it going. Yeah, and and also I think that what we can connect with that as well, which is extremely important when we are talking about AI and how to utilize AI, if you just take the answers as input, then your your brains and and synapses will be stronger in the past that they already are have connected. But what we want to do is is to get our synapses to start to find new pathways, and then we need to challenge the way that we are thinking, to give the brain a security saying that it you are safe to think in a new way.

Jody Brooks 58:02

I love that you you know when you say there that you talk about this is a psychological discussion, not a technological discussion, and I think you hit the nail on the head there is that most of the discussions around AI are from technical people, you know, kind of like this, and so in that you know, that there is almost a fear-mongering, as in like I know, but you don't, and it's amazing. So I think that when you talk about it there in that psychological safety, I think that's really, really important. I say that your fear of AI is maybe connected to your lack of connection to your own humanity, because I truly believe that if you are connected to your humanity, you truly understand that it can't replace us. There are there are things that it will never ever be able to do, and but if you are like you're saying there, I mean I never knew that, and that's frightening, is you know, and I suppose that leans into it, is if you're de-skilling yourself, you are making yourself like AI. So the trick to AI is to upskill yourself as a human because it won't keep up with you if you keep upskilling yourself as a human.

Hanna Curman 59:16

Yeah, I will nick that phrase. I think that was a beautiful phrase.

Jody Brooks 59:20

You can have it, upskill yourself as a human.

Hanna Curman 59:23

Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm I I I think that was that was a great way to to um we are rapidly running out of time.

Jody Brooks 59:32

So I would like to know so who is Hannah now, and are there still some more transformations to come?

Hanna Curman 59:41

I hope so. I hope so. I I love transformation, I love to put myself in new context and so on. One of the things that I'm doing now, I I did start my own business a year ago. That was in March 2025. So I've been having my own business now for a little bit more than a year. Um, I'm now putting myself into uh the next level of becoming international speaker, and so I I will be out there on international stages talking about what we just spoke about. I really want to be part of seeing the business world as a place where we can thrive. We don't need to be that serious, we don't need to um fight uh with each other and we don't and and uh showing that we are the best and experts and everything because AI will that is something that AI will. They will for now and forever have a higher IQ than you and I have. I mean we we will never be able to keep to compete with them. What we can compete with is the way that we are showing up and and the joy and happiness, and and that is what I I really want to be part of. Saying that we can we can run businesses with joy and happiness and be able to thrive in any context.

Jody Brooks 1:01:08

That is the most phenomenal thing. I know I don't know about in Sweden, but here in the UK, 91% of the UK work population experience extreme stress in a year. And you know, to anchor back to your belonging thing, 17%, 17% of our workforce feel lonely at work, and so I am wholeheartedly, my heart is warmed by that as a mission, and I think it's a very, very beautiful thing. You know, we spend such a large proportion of our time at work, they should be places where we go to thrive, not just survive, you know, and I think that that's amazing. It has been an incredibly rich and full conversation. Um, thank you for bringing your whole story from the messy to the new bit to the now to the moving forward and creating workplaces where people can thrive, which is a phenomenal mission. I'm sure there are loads of bits in here, and I'm sure there's lots of listeners that would like to reach out and contact you. How is it best for them to reach out and contact you?

Hanna Curman 1:02:26

Either you go to my homepage, which has the same name as my name, hanakurman.se, as I'm in Sweden, or you can search me on LinkedIn, also with my name, and DM me. I will personally respond to all DMs that you're ascending.

Jody Brooks 1:02:47

I have one final question before we go. If you could plant one seed in the mind of the listeners today that would slowly grow and bring about change for them, what would that seed be?

Hanna Curman 1:03:02

The first thing that comes up to

Who Hannah Is Now

Hanna Curman 1:03:05

me is that you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do. And what I want that to build, or what what what I want to to give with that is that take away the shame and guilt for the way that we are acting and reacting. So that is, I think that I I will I will stick to that. And if I had one more seed, I would say that everything is possible.

Jody Brooks 1:03:32

I think that is beautiful. Hannah, thank you so much for sharing so much rich stuff and context. I could have taught for hours, for sharing openly that messy bit, for really demonstrating that it's really not a crisis. In those moments, that's really where transformation happens. That messy midlife is the creative, transformative bit, and it's most definitely not a crisis. To the listeners, thank you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed the show. And remember, you're not broken, you are becoming. Thank you for spending this time with me on Messy Midlife. If this episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who might need to hear it today. You can find the show notes below and more resources at authenticcoaching.me. But it's not right.