— Introduction

Jody Brooks 0:01

You're not falling apart, you're waking up. If you're somewhere between 35 and 65, life feels like it's cracking open. The identity you built no longer fits, and the future feels terrifying. Nobody around you seems to get it. Welcome, I'm Jody Brooks, and this is Messy Midlife. Because this isn't a crisis, it's a calling to connect.

— Meet Roger Webb

Jody Brooks 0:26

Welcome, Messy Midlifers. Answering the call to connect today is Roger Webb. He has raised five kids with a single parent, spent 30 years coaching and speaking on human behaviour change, and a year ago left the United States to live nomadically with his husband. He's worked with over 15,000 people on behaviour change and recently built a habit app called Random Habit based on one uncomfortable truth that 92% of us fail at habits, not because of who they are, but because of the tools that we were given. Roger talks science the way people talk. No jargon, no theory, just things that actually matter and why. Roger, welcome to Messy Midlife and thank you for answering the call to connect today. Hi Jody, thank you. I'm actually very happy to be here. Good. I am so super excited about today. We were just having a pre-chat before, and in my research, this whole thing of habit, and as a coach, it's that one bit with clients that is always the hardest sticking point when someone wants to make a change is getting them to change it and the theory behind it and making it simple. And so I'm super excited for how we're gonna lead into that in the second half of our conversation today. But I think, like all good coaches and all people who come across a great idea, there is always a messy middle moment because that is where creativity really lies, is in that messy bit and how we transform through that. So before we get into the habit stuff, is there a messy middle moment, Roger, that you have been through that has taken you on that journey?

— Roger's Messy Middle: Depression & Identity Crisis

Roger Webb 2:25

Yeah, there's about a dozen of them. But the one that really hits me right now is out, oh I would say maybe five years ago, I hit a point where my youngest son was just about to graduate from high school. I knew I was gonna be an empty nester soon. The career that I had with my coaching and another business that I had created, everything that I was doing was hitting this moment of pinnacle where I just didn't want to do any of it anymore. And I didn't like how that felt. It really caused a lot of concern. I went into a pretty deep depression, to be honest with you. And here I am. I had successfully coached people for at that point 25 years, and here I am, the guy on the couch watching Netflix at 4 a.m. Because I'm stuck and don't know what I want to do because and everything that mattered to me six months ago didn't seem to matter anymore. And a lot of things changed in the world in 2020. And a lot of things that mattered to me didn't matter anymore, and then all of a sudden I found myself with none of it. And I it took me I would say probably about a year where I literally luckily I set out bus had a business that was at least mostly paying the bills, and I literally sat on the couch and watched Netflix for a year, not knowing who I was, what I was gonna be, began to feel like the biggest failure in the world. And that's the thing for me that I think made my coaching a little unique is I'm not a textbook co textbook coach. I didn't learn the outlines of coaching procedures and protocols. I learned how to help people, I learned how to connect with people, I learned how to heal people. And there was a big part of me that had given up on all of that. I quit my speaking engagements, I quit coaching, I canceled workshops, like I I stopped. And nothing felt like it was who I wanted to be. And I sat for a good year, probably year and a half, trying to figure out, not really trying to figure out a lie, wasn't figuring anything out. I was sitting there sulking in this misery of I don't know who I am, and so that just means that I must be a failure. Even though I'm the guy who literally wrote the book on how to rewire beliefs and succeed in your life, go figure. So I don't even remember what triggered it, but one one one belief I've always suggested to my clients is if you hit rock bottom, if you hit a place where you don't know what to do, do something. Anything. And I thought, what am I gonna do? And and at the time, which is funny, I was beginning to slightly become interested in crypto. I'm glad that selled without me. For a minute, I was like, oh, I would love to invest in crypto, but I don't have any extra income, but I have a lot of time, so maybe I should go get a job. Because I still had money coming in from businesses and I hadn't had a job. I hadn't worked for a I hadn't worked for an employer in 25 years. And I thought, if I went and got a job, I could have extra money that I could invest, and that could just be fun, and it would get me out of the house and it would get me connecting with humans again. I'm like, what would I do? What would I do to do? I want to be a server to restaurant. I was 52 years old, had never worked in a restaurant in my life, and had more business experience than anybody in the entire corporation who owned the restaurant.

— The Pizza Restaurant Turning Point

Roger Webb 6:01

And I showed up with an application and asked if I could be a server. Because it was something that I'd always wanted to do in my whole life. I love hospitality. I'd never worked in hospitality, and I thought I want to do something so different that it will shake me up, it will pull me out of whatever I was in. And this manager interviewed me and said, What the hell? And they gave me a job, and I worked at that pizza restaurant for three years and had the time of my life. That new job, it lit up parts of me that needed to be lit up for somebody who was entering a new chapter of their life. It helped me see things differently. It actually, like I can tell you right now, I wouldn't know my husband if it wouldn't have been for that job. That job put me in a state of mind that put me into some environments where I happened to meet my husband. It's just really amazing to see that the answer was still right. Just go do something. And in my experience, go do something that's so foreign to what you would normally do that it'll shock your whole system into doing something and wake you out of this funk you're in. And I did it, and it turned out to be one of the greatest gifts I've ever had. That pizza restaurant will live forever as three of the best years of my life. As I was working for tips in a pizza restaurant, and no one knew that I owned businesses and that I had the life that I had and that I had the future plan that I had, and I just got to be a dude serving pizza, and it was really cool. But it really shook me into a great new place in my life.

Jody Brooks 7:25

I absolutely love that, and I could empathize myself a little bit in it. I I did actually did something very similar. I gave up my business that I'd had for 16 years and went and worked for a corporate. Little did I know that was definitely not going to make me happy at the time. So I think you did very well, and I'm thinking, Oh, yeah, I should have done the pizza restaurant kind of thing. But I kind of love that that simplicity in what you did there. Do you think that's part of why it almost was so healing? I was listening then, and you've got all of this big success and these external representations of yourself, coach, expert, etc. Was there something about that almost that was like hiding in plain sight?

Roger Webb 8:14

I it was wonderful.

Jody Brooks 8:16

Yeah.

Roger Webb 8:17

It was wonderful. It really was. It was so funny.

— Hiding in Plain Sight: Identity & Blank Canvas

Roger Webb 8:21

Nobody knew who I was, nobody knew anything. And it was really funny is most of the people I worked with were younger millennial kids. And I remember one of them one time, somebody asked for my TikTok, and they went on my TikTok and they were just mortified that I had 26,000 followers on TikTok. Who are you? Who are you that you had? They were like, Who are you? And all the stories would start to come, and it was just really funny. But it was really nice hiding in a world where I could just explore a different part of life for a while and get away from the parts that brought me stress for a minute, and it was pretty cool.

Jody Brooks 8:55

And I suppose in that as well, having externally held up all of these fronts that you have to hold up when you have a business where you are constantly projecting success in control, all of those things. That going to something where you didn't have to do any of that, particularly listening to you there where you said your son was leaving high school, there's a huge amount of identity tied up in being a parent as well. So what was some of this pizza restaurant almost a blank canvas to decide?

Roger Webb 9:34

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. And it was really interesting because when the manager interviewed me, he said, I could use a manager. Like you're way too spirit, you're your resume, is it's stupid to make you a server here. And I told him, I said, and he asked me, Would you want management? I said, No. I said, I want to come to work and I want to clock in and I want to do my job and I want to go home, and I don't want to think about it another minute after that. And that was like pure joy to me. The idea that I didn't have to be emotionally connected once I clocked out of that job was like bliss for me. It was wonderful.

Jody Brooks 10:11

So in this uh time then in the pizza restaurant with your blank canvas now, what kind of started to emerge? Like how did it did you just sit with the blank canvas for a long time? Or did you just gently start putting colours and painting on this canvas for the next part?

Roger Webb 10:34

I would imagine if you asked some of my coworkers, they would explain, they would describe quite an experience because I was a little more conservative, a little more it's I'd never been in the industry before. But what I noticed was what's really funny is back in 1988, I was gonna go to college for hotel and restaurant management. I always wanted to go into hospitality, but my life took me into a whole different path. Parenthood, the whole thing, married to a woman, you the whole the list goes on and on and on. I came out as a gay man right before I got custody of my children. So I never got the opportunity to explore who's single guy Roger, who's single gay guy Roger, who is so I never got that opportunity. So being in this pizza restaurant gave me an ability to start to explore who am I? My fashion changed a little bit. I I parts of things that I was interested in began to evolve because I was in a different environment. Being out of the corporate environment for a while was very different. So yeah, it Roger became working in that pizza restaurant is a chapter of my life that I will owe for the rest of my life. It was pretty special.

Jody Brooks 11:49

And it does it sounds like obviously the show says it's a answer in a call to connect, and it really does feel like that's almost what happened in that pizza restaurant is you went back, there was so much external responsibility with children and all of those things. I can only imagine it's a whirlwind to come out and then not own that identity yourself because you're instantly stepping into an identity where there's a responsibility to the children around you, so you're born automatically into parent. And as you told it then, I was like, Oh my god, it was almost like hopping back in time and rebothering your teenage years.

Roger Webb 12:33

Yeah, 100%, 100%, yeah.

Jody Brooks 12:36

It's gonna I'm gonna kind of felt like that. I'm gonna go and do the teenage job, I'm gonna go and do the there's a whole chapter here that I need before I can move forward, and I just think it's yeah magical that you did that. So as you then and you say the three years, at what point did you start to think, okay, this is now running its course, or there needs to be a point of change that started to project you back on a new trajectory?

— Leaving the US: The Nomadic Leap

Roger Webb 13:15

The world changed. Honestly, that's the easiest way you can say it. A couple things changed. I met my husband and we So I had planned my go my most of my life, my plan had been that someday when my kids are grown, I was gonna go travel the world. I it was a fair exchange. I stopped my life and put on pause so I could be a dad, and now I've been a dad, and now it's my turn. And my kids all agree they're wonderful human beings, and so I had always planned on I'm gonna go hit the road. And the joke was always that my youngest son, I was like, when you the graduation day, the you the truck's gonna be packed. I'm leaving. Are you coming with me? Are you staying here? Like I'm out. But then I met Jimmy and my husband, and so it delayed me a year. And so during that year, I honestly I got stuck into a life that most Americans, the many Americans got stuck into at that time of I'm a single parent, I'm working a job, I'm trying to make rent, I'm working however many jobs I need to work to make sure I can get rent next month. My life became very challenging. And then politically things fell apart, and then other things fell apart. And that's when it was finally like one night we were talking, we'd had a long, rough day. I'm I guess to back up a little bit, my husband and I are both very empathic people. I feel the energy of everybody around me. And working in a restaurant in a in the fifth largest city in the United States during a really tense time in our country, it was exhausting for me. And one night we both just had it, and he looked at me and he said, Can you get me out of here? And he knew I had talked about this, I had had this plan, if you will, for years, but it I never thought I was anywhere near being able to do it yet. And when he said that, I'm like, you're right. After Jonathan's gone, my son, we got no reason to stick around. I didn't own a home on purpose. I never set up my life, I always set up my life so that I could just go. That's what I always wanted to do. And we sat down and we realized that my job at the restaurant paid for our living expenses in Phoenix, Arizona. If I get rid of my living expenses in Phoenix, Arizona, I don't need the job at the restaurant anymore, and then we can leave because my other businesses will support us enough to live somewhere else. It won't support us enough to live in Phoenix, but it'll support us somewhere else. So let's start looking at it. And six months later, we bought a one-way ticket and we left the United States, and it's crazy.

Jody Brooks 15:56

When we talked before, and I said I have ultimate envy, and it still remains my plan. And I think it was there was a couple of bits in there, it was interesting, and I think not just America, but certainly here in the UK, we're experiencing some of that similar stress at the moment politically. In fact, today is an election here, and it is hard not to be affected by those things, that that general mood. And I think it was interesting in there as well is you that realization of sometimes we become trapped, but we're almost trapping ourselves. That bit there where you said about I was only going to work to pay the bills that were stopping me realizing my dream. I was anchoring myself in that point.

Roger Webb 16:56

And we were getting so anchored in this place that it was like, wait a minute, we have an opportunity right now. We could make this work. We really could. And it just the idea of it what it felt like we're standing on this high-speed train and we're gonna jump off at the next station. And that's what it felt like. It felt like, okay, if we have one shot, we have one shot to jump and we're gonna jump, and that's what we did.

Jody Brooks 17:24

It's switching from resilience to courage. It takes resilience to stay in that moment, and resilience becomes exhausting. But we do it because it takes courage to do what you did, to turn around and go, okay, quit the job, let's stop renting the house, let's pack a bag, let's buy a ticket. How long from the decision? I want to know, how long from that conversation to leaving did it take?

Roger Webb 17:52

Six months. Six months. But see, here's the thing that's crazy, Jody, is I had pretty much been planning for this for the years. So I I had purposely started downsizing over the last five years of my life. I had my life down to I don't got much left, and I'll go. My husband, on the other hand, is somebody who, prior to meeting me, is the guy that holds on to every single letter from his neighbor and when he was in second grade. We're boxes and boxes and boxes of pictures and letters and keepsakes, and he's an album collector, a vinyl collector, and we have hundreds of vinyls, and so so he went from zero to six months. He went through every single thing he owned, every paper, every book, every picture, and we made a decision. Do we keep it, do we throw it away, or do we do we store it, do we throw it away, or do we sell it or give it away? And and it they went in these piles, and literally we just at the end, we just gave stuff. My kids got so lucky because they literally just came shopping in our house. Furniture, like you name it, they just came shopping. Everything we own is in 18 storage tubs at my kids' house in Washington. And we did that in six months. It's crazy.

Jody Brooks 19:06

That in itself, that's a that's quite a journey to go on in a relationship as a couple that must have taken quite a lot of understanding and trust and compassion to get through that process.

Roger Webb 19:22

Yeah, it was quite an experience. And I'd my husband had never left the United States before we left before we did this. Like, like that's how like he Yeah, like he jumped in deep. Like he he's not the same man he was a year ago. And watching what's happened to both of us has been one of the coolest things I've ever experienced in my life.

Jody Brooks 19:48

And I feel like I want to get the podcast now. I want to get him on the podcast.

Roger Webb 19:52

Oh yeah, I know. He's he's sleeping right now, but no, he could tell you he's amazing. He the transformation that's gone through that man has been pretty spectacular. He's currently writing his second album, he's a musician, and so we roam the world, and he takes inspiration from wherever we are, and he's writing music.

Jody Brooks 20:11

Listening to you there, you know, that definitely is from that kind of messy creative bit to forge and push through to create something a very unique that brings you happiness and is realigns to your purpose. What do you think in all of that, what was the greatest challenge emotionally in getting to where you are now from that messy middle bit?

— Learning to Surrender & Flow

Roger Webb 20:41

So learning how to like really learning what the word surrender means. I it's funny, I used to teach people how to surrender, and what I learned in those experiences over the last probably three or four years, it's taught me a level of surrender that I never understood before. And I really hit a point where I just have I have a deep amount of trust in what I call the universe and whatever it is that that that m does whatever it does. I don't know what to call it, and I don't need to have a reason to call it, but I have an immense amount of trust that I've never been let down when I trust. And so I'm learning that that whole shakeup that I explained where I lost my career and I just went in this hiding, it it really helped me to understand that I'm not in charge, and I my life goes much better when I just allow and flow than it does when I try to make it what it's supposed to be. Because what it's supposed to be isn't not necessarily what I need. So it's really helped me learn how to just say, I don't know where I'm going, because I didn't. And I ended up in a pizza restaurant that changed my life. So it's just It's amazing.

Jody Brooks 22:01

I think that in that it's really lovely to hear. Essentially I would say to you, would you say that that really is about mastering the art of being in the present rather than trying to project yourself somewhere forced in the future? Would you say that that's essentially what you've learned to do is to just stand in that moment.

Roger Webb 22:25

It's interesting that you say like that. We've my husband and I've had a lot of conversations about this week. And to me, it's not about standing in the moment, it's about allowing myself to fall in the moment and knowing that it's okay. Knowing that I like standing still shows that I'm in control. I'm the one standing here. To me, I just want to l fall back and let the universe carry me. And that's where I feel like I've come to a place where I'm truly now, and I'm so happy that something shifted in me that took me to this place where I don't worry anymore because I'm not in control, and I'm just doing whatever I'm led to do, and whatever comes into my path right now, that's whatever I'm supposed to do right now. So that's what I'm gonna do. And I live my life like that. Yes, it's being more in the present, but I think it's even more than that. It's more than being in the present, and it's allowing yourself to flow through whatever the present becomes.

Jody Brooks 23:22

I'm just sat here just thinking how amazing that is as an interpretation, is taking it from stand in the moment, which is an element of control, to actually you're saying flow with the moment is just surrender and don't try and control it in any way. Not even to the point of saying I'm standing in this moment and being aware of this moment, I'm just yeah, being essentially.

Roger Webb 23:49

And it's crazy, it's crazy. I can tell you that the more I've practiced this, the more amazing my life has become. The more like massive miracles are placed right in front of me, and I'm like, okay, this is working. I'm gonna keep doing this.

Jody Brooks 24:04

Do you you know, in that it's interesting, I know I've had moments in my life where I call it that magic of a miracle, and and I sometimes call it the power of three sometimes, because I always say there's one and then something else, and then on the third, I'm like, okay, world, I get it. That's three different times you've presented me with that, so I'll stop ignoring it. Do you think that those miracles, those moments, are arriving because of that state you've put yourself in, or is it just because of the state that you're in, you're now seeing that they were there because they were always there and present?

Roger Webb 24:47

No, I absolutely there believe that they're there because I'm allowing them to be. I have a belief, and it it might be in the gospel according to Roger, that when the universe sees that I'm surrendering to what in my mind the universe rewards me more for that and says, Okay, you got it, here you go. You know why here's more, you got it. Yeah, I do personally believe that the act of demonstrating that surrender allows even more abundance to come into my life.

Jody Brooks 25:19

Now feels like a good time, I think we've really unpacked your messy bit, that huge identity shift, the fact that you didn't know who you were essentially anymore. If you stopped being all of those things, that kind of shift, like you're saying, being caused, and that beautiful decision to go and work in a pizza restaurant as a server and have a blank canvas and start painting future Roger on that canvas, which kind of brings you to this moment now personally, where you're saying that you've learnt to be in this complete flow state to surrender and the world is delivering you, having found the courage to not continue to be resilient and stay in something that drained you, but to take the courageous decision to follow your purpose and your dream, and as I say, step off that hamster wheel and go and be the nomad that you dreamed of. Are there any bits in us having that amazing discussion that we've just had around that messy middle that you feel we haven't covered that need to formulate that before we catch our breath?

Roger Webb 26:36

No, I think we're good. I'm trying to think. I think you covered it pretty well.

Jody Brooks 26:40

Cool. Then I think this is a perfect time for us to just take a few moments. We'll catch our breath, and we'll be back shortly, and we'll discuss then how that has shaped your flow moment as you are now.

Roger Webb 26:56

Random habit isn't another habit tracker. Most apps just measure what you do, but they don't wire it in. You choose a goal, define one simple action, and random habit sends random sparks, tiny reminders to repeat it throughout your day. Each time you complete it, the app celebrates you with a random sound, message, and visual. Those random rewards trigger dopamine, keeping your brain curious and locking in the habit faster than repetition alone. Ready to rewire your brain the fun way? This is Random Habit.

— After the Break: Habits & the Random Habit App

Jody Brooks 27:40

Welcome back, Messy Midlifers. You rejoin us here. I'm still talking to Roger. We had the most amazing conversation before the break about that messy middle and how that's delivered Roger now to this beautiful life that he's created, this nomadic life, and his surrender to his flow state. I mentioned at the beginning of today's episode about Roger's work on habit. And so I suppose there's a huge part of this now where you've definitely answered that call to connect. I couldn't help as we got to the end of the first half, I was like, This is you know the most amazing thing. And almost as a kind of irony that you've answered the call to connect by disconnecting almost 100%. But obviously, I'm interested now, you know, you are a very successful coach, all those people. How have the lessons from that part of your life now transformed into the work that you're doing now as a coach and your habit app?

Roger Webb 28:59

I'm actually not doing work as a coach, but I guess my habit app is my work as a coach now. But I I built it, this was very non-traditional, I guess you could say. But I've always been the guy that if I have an idea, I just move on it. I don't know if you or any of your listeners have ever read Big Magic by Liz Gilbert. It was a very impactful book for me. And the idea is when you have that idea, you act on it. And I and so I did. And when I started building this app, it wasn't about habits, it wasn't about anything, it was about me trying to find something to help me with a bad back. And as I started putting the ideas together, that's when my past and my experience in working with clients for 30 years started to come back. Because one of the things that frustrated me as a coach, I what I coach people on was strictly behavior change. I'm an NLP practitioner. I would consider myself to be an expert in the subconscious. I've studied the subconscious for 30 years. I know how it works pretty well. I know how to wire stuff in, I know how to rewire stuff pretty well, and I've had some pretty good success with it. So I took the knowledge, as good as I was as a coach, clients still failed. And everybody that we do. I don't care who you are, I don't care if you're Tony Robbins, I don't care if you're Brendan, I don't care who you are. We nobody hits all their goals 100% of the time because we're human. And it was always frustrating to me in my own life as well as my big many clients and my children, watching my children as they grew up, just watching people who were doing everything right still failing over and over. And there there came a point where it wasn't just about personal development, it wasn't about the I became, and a lot of coaches probably aren't gonna like me anymore because of what I talk about now. I it came to a point where I realized that the people who are teaching that willpower and discipline are the way to get your your goals, or the people who are charging you to teach you how to have willpower and discipline. Like willpower and discipline are not part of our human DNA. And as I started to see to realize that all these people started to fail, this all this realization was coming to me as this app was being developed, and I realized, wow, maybe I maybe this could really help. Maybe this could, because it literally it was just me as a just being silly in my own head, trying to think of what I could do to help my back. See, I I've had a very bad back for many years, and and it was very a lot due to my posture. I had an injury when I was a kid, so my posture's always been a little weird, and I've never learned how to hold my core, and no one's ever taught me to hold my chest right and hold my core and engage my my all that. I didn't know. And when you're 55 years old and you don't have a core, it's pretty rough. And I'm chasing a lot of squirrels, I understand, but it'll all come together here in a minute. So one of the cool one of the cool things that happened for me when I left the United States is that my nervous system got to breathe. So I had been a single dad for eight 18 years. I had built three successful businesses, managed thousands of people, managed many clients, managed everything, and it was always me. Roger did everything. And if Roger didn't do it, it didn't get happen, it didn't happen. And so you can imagine what my nervous system was like after 18 years of that. So once I got to this little tiny tropical island in Thailand that didn't allow stress to live there, I felt what it felt like to have my nervous system release. And the creativity that started to come was beyond anything I've ever experienced in my life. And I was literally sitting on the deck of our house on this little island, and my back was hurting, and I'm like, I wish I could find something to help my back because I've been to every practitioner in four different countries to try to find help for my back, and it was very frustrating. And I thought if I could just have somebody with me all day long that would rant that would remind me, hey Roger, engage your core, stand up straight. But they couldn't remind me on a calendar. See, we all set calendars on our phone. We have these alarms, it'll just remind me every three hours to drink a glass of water. Or I set a reminder, remind me every three hours to stand up straight. But what happens is our brains get bored with that. It has no connection to our neuropathways. It starts them a little bit, but it doesn't build anything. I thought if I maybe there's an app out there that I could have randomly remind me, because if it does it randomly, then I know from what I know about human behavior that random random will change human behavior faster than predictable will. It's called variable ratio reinforcement. And so what the scientists studied is that if something is regular, if I know that my alarm's gonna go off every three hours and tell me to drink a water, after three or four of those, it's gonna lose its power. After a couple days of doing it, it I'm probably most of us know we probably have ignored it by then and moved on. So random keeps your brain engaged and it keeps your brain looking for when's that next reminder. So I thought I need somebody to remind me to stand up straight randomly. So I went looking and I went through hundreds of apps looking for an app that could give me a random reminder to stand up straight, and that's really how this began. And it wasn't there, there wasn't one. So I've always had the belief that if it's not there and you want it, you make it. So I started thinking.

Jody Brooks 34:35

That's amazing. There's a point there that I want to like pick as someone that's a bit obsessed about this whole goal thing myself and habits and as a coach and some of the same frustrations as you, and I am definitely not perfect. There are bits where I sit there and I coach myself, and I'm like, why is that not sticking? And I'm listening to that there. The interesting thing there about that I was picked up on, and I hope you'll be able to expand on it, is that repetition, because I have noticed that myself, and is there I'm sat thinking that the truth in that is this element that our subconscious doesn't want us to change because it perceives change as a threat quite frequently. So is part of that repetition the fact that it almost spots that so I know I'd be good for like a day doing the water thing, but then the moment it goes, I'm like, oh god, it's that water thing again. And it and I have to pull myself back. So is that part of it as well? Is that we're not designed to change like intrinsically, we're designed to go against it.

— Why 92% of Us Fail at Habits

Roger Webb 35:43

I personally wouldn't say that. Yes, there is a part of the subconscious that that tries to protect us from change, but in my belief is from a whole different reason. But the part of change takes work. It does take work. And prior to now, all of the experience that we've had in our life shows that if the statistic is right, 92% of the time I've tried something, I've failed, and you're trying to get me to do something else, your brain is not on board for something that it knows fails. Why would you it's like asking your brain, hey, I want you to do this thing for me, it's not gonna work, but I want you to do it anyway. Your brain's like, then why are we even messing with this? And what happens is we do get that after three or four, then we start to build resentment about this alarm. I don't like why is this and because what happened is we start to go into a guilt and shame spiral because we missed an alarm and now we're not doing what we know is good for ourselves, and now we're worthless pieces of because we're not taking care of ourselves the way we should be, and we start to go down this bane shame cycle, and that's what happens in our current system of habits and goals, and it's ridiculous.

Jody Brooks 36:49

What I was saying there is almost trying to protect us from failure because you're aware that 92% of us fail, so it's a shortcut. I don't know why you like stop punishing yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Because our our actual experience is I'm gonna fail at some point. So it's well, fail now then. That's three days, that's enough.

Roger Webb 37:09

Yeah, it really is, it really is. And it's funny, so as I went through these apps looking for this app that didn't exist, I started noticing there's hundreds of habit apps out there, and they're all exactly the same. You keep track of your list and you hit your streaks, and then you discipline and willpower and you push it through, they're all the same. They have different designs and different colors and they look different, but they're all the same. And that system doesn't work, and so as I started thinking, so the this app idea in my head, I was like, I know nothing about apps. What am I talking about? I don't have the money to build an app right now. I'm traveling around the world, I'm semi-retired, I don't want to work again. What am I doing? But the idea wouldn't go away. And in my experience, when the idea doesn't go away, as Liz Gilbert says in Big Magic, I highly recommend the book. If that idea doesn't go away, I need to listen to it. And so one night in my meditation, I was thinking about what this app really am I an app guy now? Like it just didn't it just seemed crazy to me. And I had this the voice, I call it, that said, You don't have the money to build this app. A whole bunch of people who do. And so before I went to bed, I threw up a little note on Facebook that said, Hey, is there anybody out there who would be interested in investing in this idea I have? Because I didn't need a lot of money. I just needed a little bit to get started. And I woke up in the morning and two people had reached out to me and said, What do you need? And I was like, Oh my gosh, we could really do this. And prior to that, I had nothing other than a little outline in my head of what this app might do. A week later, I hired a developer without even an outline of what this app was gonna be. That was not the order you're supposed to go in when you develop an app, by the way. My developers hate me. But we've created something. One of my greatest mentors said, Man will be paid in direct proportion to the service he renders to mankind. That's been a quote that I've lived my professional life by my whole life. And what I can tell you is I know what it feels like to have that moment in my life where I'm like, oh my god, this is it. This is my thing. This is it. Because I can tell you, Jody, as this thing began to be built and we started to see how powerful it really was, but not just for habits, because then I started thinking about all the clients that I had. I'm gonna I'm gonna say something that most coaches, many coaches might disagree. Hopefully, some won't. Habits don't fail because of any other reason than because people have limiting beliefs. Our limiting beliefs are what hold us back from everything. And I dedicated 30 years of my life to helping people learn how to rewire the limiting beliefs they have. And I have a system that works, it's proven it works. And so then I started looking at this app and saying, what could we do if we use this app for affirmation work? For mental health work. So my husband was the very first user of the app. And he's he told his story on my TikTok, so I have permission to share it. He's struggled with some pretty intense self-esteem worthiness issues most of his life. He had a pretty rough life growing up, and he's really struggled with some things he believes about himself. And it was getting to the point that it was really starting to just really wear him to the point he just needed it to be different. Fortunately, he married somebody who had a 30-year career of helping people learn how to rewire those beliefs. So I sat down with him and did a process that I do with my clients to create a statement for him. It's a very specifically structured I am statement that's very specifically created to counter his strongest limiting beliefs. And then we programmed that statement into his app so that all day his app reminded him at random times this I am statement that he made for himself, and he says it out loud and he feels it and he connects to the emotion with it. And I can tell you within a week of him saying that, I could see him start to believe it. And about two weeks later, he was starting to become this new person. And I can tell you, my husband's a different date person today because he learned how to rewire the things in his brain. We have a beta tester who just wanted to have more joy in his life. He began to realize that he was a little dumpy. Life was rough. He tested the app for us for two weeks, and at the end of two weeks, he said, people are asking around him what's wrong because he's smiling for the first time in years. He said he's seeing joy in places where he never saw it before. All because of this app on his phone reminded him to stop and find beauty in the world multiple times randomly throughout the day. So what this app is becoming is so much more than a habit app, and I'm watching it literally allow people to rewire the voices in their head that are holding them back from getting what they want in their life, and it's been very exciting to watch happen.

Jody Brooks 41:59

The coach, I completely agree with everything that you've said, and so there's two of us at least that might not be popular, and I think sometimes I am unpopular because I fly in the face of that. I was a previous episode where I actually turned around and said, As a coach, I don't want you to come back to me. I consider it an insult if you keep coming back. Like the whole point is that I want you to fly. Right. Right?

Roger Webb 42:29

Yeah, I never understood.

Jody Brooks 42:31

I I got into this because I want you to go on a journey with me, and then that's it. So I'm super, super excited. By the time this episode comes out, I know that the app will be out, and I know that my clients will be directed towards the app. I'm desperate to go and get my hands on it myself. And I just saw there your phrase, your quote that you gave, and the absolute joy in your face about that service to mankind, which I think as coaches we all try and do that. And when you say there, this is my moment, and that bit about belief as well, that bit in there that I think is really, really powerful. And I just want to anchor back to that in relation to the habit stuff. So just so I'm clear as I'm loving this, I'm learning and growing as a coach talking to you. Thank you. So that belief bit, would you say that that really is that 92% there? We touched on it before where we said we almost believe we'll fail. Is it that we only have eight percent belief that we might succeed?

Roger Webb 43:49

Here's the deal with the my take on that statistic is from and it's really funny, I had a conversation just a couple days ago with a gentleman that I've met here in Vietnam. Who is he's taught workshops on habits. He goes to the gym every day. He's very fit. He's very healthy. He's very disciplined. And his nervous system is like this. I can feel it when I'm around him. But he's very disciplined. And he had a really hard time understanding how establishing a new habit using my app was gonna work because it didn't require that discipline and willpower, because that's what makes us successful. And that's the message that we've been given for so long. Is we have to find that part of us or heal that part of us that will help us become a better person to reach that new goal. I believed that and I taught that for so long. And now I just think it's time to tell people it's time for a win, finally, because here's the deal that 92% comes because it takes a lot of work to become somebody better to get a new, to create something new in your life. But the world, especially the mental health world, in my belief, and I might take a lot of flack for this, has somehow created this myth that healing is hard and that healing takes a long time, and that growth is a journey and a struggle, and it doesn't have to be. And that's the piece that people need to understand. It doesn't have to be if you do it smart. And here's the deal is as I was looking through all these apps, I didn't know how miraculous my app was until I looked at research after I created it and realized how different it really is. It has nothing to do with streaks, it has nothing to do with any of that. In fact, all those other apps, they punish you if you make a mistake. They do. Think about it. It's ridiculous. There's nothing but celebration. There and you will never ever see random habit telling you that you missed a spark or that you didn't do what you were supposed to do. What you will see is every single time you come back to random habit, it's gonna celebrate you. And when it celebrates you, it's gonna create dopamine, and dopamine says, do this again. This is really cool. And when we tie it with that randomness, so I guess I didn't really even explain to you how the app works. So let me back up a little bit.

— How Random Habit Works

Roger Webb 46:08

We have a little bit of a different philosophy with with habits, with random habit. Pick one habit, just one. Pick one thing that you want to improve in your life in the next 90 days.

Jody Brooks 46:22

Just one remembering to take my vitamins.

Roger Webb 46:25

Okay, so that one is a little bit of a challenge, and let me tell you why, with the way that the app works. Because you're taking your vitamins is something you just do one time a day. So you can let me rephrase my statement. You can definitely use random habit for that, but I'm gonna tell you there's other things that would be better served using it, and let me tell you why. Remembering to take your vitamins perfect. So you set you what you do is you set up the app and you say, I want to remember to take my vitamins, and then the app asks you to set up a spark. What a spark is a spark is that one action that you're going to do that's going to support your habit. And it's the same action every single time you're reminded. So for this, it would be take my vitamins. So you would have to, if you're using the app to remind you to do something that's just a one time a day or a two time a day, you want to use the do not disturb hours click in the app to have it remind you during a certain time. If you know that between this hour and this hour is when you usually need to take it and you forget, you just set it to remind you. But it's just going to give you one reminder. When you get that reminder, you take your vitamins and you push the button in the app saying you completed your spark. When you complete your spark, the app celebrates you. And it celebrates you with something very specific. It celebrates you with a message that has three components. It has a visual component, it has an auditory component, and it has a a message, a text message, an affirmation, if you will. So that's three different things that have a potential of pulling dopamine when you see them. Every celebration in the app is random. You will never ever have the odds of you receiving the same celebration two times in a 90-day cycle are one in 792,000. So you will never have the same celebration. So your brain never gets bored with something. It always wants to see what's going to be said, what's going to be, what's the sound gonna be, what's the picture gonna be, what's the audio gonna be. It's always gonna keep it looking. But when you get that dopamine hit, your brain has that message of, oh, this is cool, do it again. So let me take it to a little different example. Let's say you want to drink water. Because drinking water is something you want to do throughout an entire day.

Jody Brooks 48:31

That was gonna be my second one, but I thought that was the obvious one.

Roger Webb 48:36

No, perfect. And it still works, it just doesn't use the full component of what the app can do for you because it's just a one kind of a day thing. Yeah. So let's say I tell the app I want to drink water. I want to drink more water. So my spark might be take five sips of water. And then I'm gonna set my spark, I'm gonna set my app to remind me, say 15 times between the hours of 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. And then that's what I all I do is I sit back and I wait. And so the app will remind me, I will get a notification to take a drink of water. And when I take my drink of water, I push it and I get the celebration, I get the dopamine hit. But what we're finding that's happening is most people, and we knew this would happen because the way the brain works, within a couple of days, you'll find yourself taking that drink of water before the spark even goes off because you know it's coming. And so your brain, your body will start doing the habit before it even happens. So my my husband and one of the ones we're testing has a habit to do 10 push-ups. This is a fantastic for health. People don't have time to go to the gym anymore, and they get really overloaded and overwhelmed when they have that think about I've got to go to the gym five days a week. So we have an option. I commit myself to go to the gym five days a week, which we all know most human beings are gonna break that and end up not going to the gym anymore. Or you can say, I'm gonna do 10 push-ups a couple times a day. So you set the app to remind you to do 10 push-ups, say 10 times a day. A hundred push-ups a day will change your physical body without having to go to the gym. And it takes about a minute. And my husband's been doing it for three weeks, and I can tell you, it works way better than it was with him going to the gym that he never went to. And I can tell you that what's cool is I'll see him doing push-ups before the app even tells him because he's like, I know it's gonna tell me anyway, so I'm just gonna do them. And so he's his body's naturally doing the things that he's supposed to be doing anyway, because your brain's now engaged in this new game of let's start a new habit. Oh, and this time it's different than the others. This is cool, and it keeps it looking in it a little different way than it ever has before.

Jody Brooks 50:38

I love that element. I think we all as coaches, you know, that people try habits or goals, they make them so big that it then takes this huge amount of willpower, like the gym five times a week, or they get so lost in this they get so lost in this future destination. And I think that's that power. I'm uh said it before, a huge fan of James Clear and Atomic Habits. And I was listening there, and it's that one percent stuff, it's that one percent change, like you're saying, is it's it's that tiny repetitive huge change comes from lots of tiny repetitive actions.

Roger Webb 51:15

Yeah. Period. Yeah.

Jody Brooks 51:16

And that's amazing. And another bit that you did there, which certainly in my work I've become very aware of, is the power of dopamine or and the negative power of dopamine that we currently have in society and the doom scrolling that goes with it, because I think there are a large proportion of people who've become dopamine addicts, but in a very bad way. And I always say you can keep scrolling, but what you're looking for is never going to be there, you will never reach the bottom, and as you scroll, you're just gonna get emptier, and you're gonna require more and more of that dopamine. And one of the things I talk about as a coach is the importance of the other ones that are involved in that of the oxytocin, the serotonin as well. And I was listening to that there in the serotonin, the mood regulator, and oxytocin, I call it the compassion, the love hormone, if you like. But in that element of your app, there, would I be right in saying that they're built in as well because the compassion is in the phrase and the reward that comes back. So 100%. You not only get the dopamine, but you get the other two that then regulate the dopamine that make this a complete thing rather than that empty feeling that dopamine just provides.

Roger Webb 52:44

And see, here's the thing

— Dopamine, Belief & the Power of Showing Up

Roger Webb 52:46

is dopamine's got a bad rap. Um, the exact same reason why people doom scroll is why random habit works, because that variable ratio reinforcement, your brain is looking for that next exciting thing and it knows that it's gonna hit it eventually. So all we did is we took what's fact about dopamine. This is how dopamine works, this is what dopamine is. So instead of having dopamine take you to this doom scrolling place where you don't get anything better, let's just turn that dopamine around and point it back at what's happening. But as you said, some other really cool things happened. So for myself, when I first started using the app, for months I was using from a technical I every time I was in the app, I wasn't allowing myself to get connected to it emotionally at all. I just I was just, does this work? Does this work? Does this work? And when I finally did, I had this moment where the spark that I had set on the app I happened to be testing was to get up and move for two minutes because none of us do that enough. And so I set my spark to remind me 15 times during the day just to get up and move for two minutes. And so I had a pretty busy day and I was still just testing. I wasn't really actively using the app right then, but I was sitting here, in fact, I was sitting right here, and it went off. And I was like, man, I've been sitting here for about an hour, probably doom scrolling, probably doing something. Thank you, random habit. And I got up and I moved, and when I pushed that button, I felt it, and I felt the exact thing that we're supposed to feel when we pushed the button in the app. And I had this moment, oh my gosh, it works. But what to add to what you said, what was really cool is it wasn't just about me pushing the butt the button and having a shiny thing that creates dopamine. It was about there was this moment of Roger just showed up for himself, and that feels really good. And there's something to that, and it does, it fires all these things. And then what else is really cool about the app is if you're in a typical habit app and you miss you break your streak, there's a big red X or whatever. Let's say that I'm driving to work and a spark comes. I can't do my spark while I'm driving to work, but when I get to work, I can. So there's this moment of when I get to work, I look at my phone, I do my spark, and then there's even another hit of look at you showing up for yourself, even when it didn't go off, and even though you may you had to, and even though there's this whole thing that builds about building your own, there's a great power in keeping your word to yourself. Think. And every time you keep your word to yourself by pushing that button, your brain gets so excited that you're showing up for you, that it makes something magic happen. And it is because all the chemicals are firing at the same time, and it's it in a healthy way.

Jody Brooks 55:33

You sum it up beautifully there in showing up for you, and that was the bit there where I got a bit fluttery as you were calling it, is because it was in my messy middle journey. The hardest thing I had to learn was self-compassion and to turn up for me and not to turn up for other people, but to turn up for me first. And so as you were describing it, I was like, This is I completely see why you're so excited, because this is I'm gonna say it, genius. This is I can see literally how this is gonna change a lot of people's lives. Mine included, because I can see that I'm gonna be straight to to down yeah, down.

Roger Webb 56:18

You know, thank you, Jody. I gotta tell you, there's a moment because for a year this was just an idea in my head. This was my idea. This was all me. Every bit of this was my idea, and there's this part in my brain that's like, oh my god, I hope this is a good idea. I hope it works. I hope people like it. I hope there's that piece, and I was really nervous about it. And there was a point about two weeks ago where I read the very last survey that our beta testers filled out, and I sat here with my computer and I read the things that they said about the change that had happened in their life in two weeks. And for the first time in my life, I was proud of something that I made, and I didn't feel that imposter syndrome anymore because now I have proof. My idea works, and it's gonna help people. Um the whole purpose of my life has been to help people, and I had this moment of wow, I think I really did make something that has the ability to help a lot of people. And I have this the reason why I built Random Habit is imagine I have a belief that if you're working on yourself, your vibration's gonna go up a little bit. Imagine if I could get 10 million people to download Random Habit. Imagine if there were 10 million people on this planet who were raising their vibration just a little bit. Imagine what would happen to this place where we live, and that's why it's here. I want everybody to start having wins again, I want people to start having successes again, I want people to start setting goals and saying, Oh my god, I did it. And then they set another one. And if I can tell you this app, it makes it easy. And it's time for it to be easy because it's been hard for too long.

Jody Brooks 58:11

I feel quite emotional. I can feel your emotion, and I can only begin to imagine how hard that journey's been. There are several bits that I do want to check in on and come back to this emotional bit, but I was listening to the whole journey there, and there was something you said way back at the beginning of all of this, that you were a developer's nightmare because you didn't approach it in the normal way. What radiates for me in all of this for from you as a human being, and it radiates from you is this element of as you say now, submitting to flow to allowing it to happen. How much the app has arrived in its state because you didn't follow the normal format.

Roger Webb 59:06

100% without question. Yeah, I can tell you I didn't even I didn't even have an idea of a color scheme when I went to my we didn't have anything. And I really did just want it to be created as it went. I had a vague idea of what I wanted it to be, and I just let it become what it is, and there it's I wouldn't say that that's the smartest way to build an app, but it was definitely successful. There's still the reason why you're still waiting for an Apple iPhone version is because we're having a lot of battles because of the way the developers did something with Apple. And so had I come to them with a here's our app, let's go creative, I already have it all figured out, a lot of problems would not have been in the process. But at the same time, I don't think a lot of the magic would have come up either.

Jody Brooks 59:58

That's the bit there that shines for me is I wonder how much of it would have been almost programmed out of it, how much of that pure creativity, that uniqueness would have disappeared in the repetition of well, this is how we do it. So it it became I think and listening to you there, I have no doubt that maybe that's just because you've just broken the mould on it all, and maybe in the future people will go, you need to build an app the way Roger did, not the way everybody else did.

Roger Webb 1:00:36

Because you never know.

Jody Brooks 1:00:38

Yeah, it's like you never know. And I can imagine as well as somebody who has previously done stuff with tech people. I think I'm a create my industry, it was a creative, I'm a craftsperson, I was a hairdresser by trade for 32 years. I worked internationally on stage, fashion week was very much at that art creative bit, and I know that we drive technical people insane because there's almost no limit to they're very structured and there's that whole bit. And so I could really empathize with that's exactly how I would have done it. I'd have gone, no, this is the idea. Now you solve your that's not my problem.

Roger Webb 1:01:21

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, but there was a point my developer said, No more, Roger, no more changes, no more changes. We can't add anything else, we can't change anything else. We just need to fix what we have and move forward. I'm like, okay. So yeah, but version two is already in my head and it's spectacular already, so we're gonna keep going.

— Wrapping Up & Final Thoughts

Jody Brooks 1:01:41

I think it's super amazing, and I know I peered to my side to see my clock and my timer, and I knew we said before we set out this was gonna be a hard conversation to get down. Yeah, it's all good. And we could have I could have gone on for ages, and I do want to kind of head us towards that finish line. It's very late where you are. So I think what shines out there for me in all of that and truly there going back to that emotional part of that bit of kind of you now having submitted to this not even submitted, but allowed yourself to be in this flow state, to be taken along by the current almost, and allow yourself to see all of these things, and the beauty of the fact that it's delivered you to this point where you truly now have produced something that will make such a huge impact. I love how it already has become more than it was ever intended in the first place. I think you're leaning out there to that emotional and the mental wellness part in the world that we currently live in is huge, and that's a huge service to mankind that you have already completed and I have no doubt will go on to be much greater. And one of my things I say to people is it does all see doom and gloom, but you know, the first step is to just go out and be the difference you want to see, and I loved that about that you saying about raising your vibration if ten million people and to have got to a point where there's always a limit as a coach, isn't there? Where we all set out to make an impact to make the world better, and you've blown it out of the water, Roger, because you are about to reach millions of people that's there's an infinite possibility in it, and I'm gonna thank you on behalf of mankind for going on that journey which couldn't have been easy. As we come to that end bit before we can move on, are there any parts of the app or the behaviour or anything in that that I've missed that you feel you really need to discuss before we head towards wrapping up?

Roger Webb 1:04:21

You know, just the idea of of somebody asked me once in another podcast or something, what's the one message you would say, or who is this for? Who is this app for? And this app is for that person who who's just tired, the person who's tired of trying and failing, and trying and failing and trying and failing, that person who is the one who gives reminders to everyone, but nobody gives reminders to them, that person that pours into everyone. This is something that can allow everyone to find a brighter peace in their life. And if there is that one thing that you've always tried and failed and tried and failed, I'm just gonna ask you to give me one more shot. Because something here is different. This is different, it really is, and it's really exciting.

Jody Brooks 1:05:11

I am excited to see this journey. I already follow you on social and I can't wait to see it unfold. I will by the time we release this, the app will be fully out, and I promise that there will be a link in the show notes below. But I'm figuring that you'll be able to find it where people normally get their apps. Google Play, the app.

Roger Webb 1:05:35

Yeah, yeah. We're we're actually already on Google Play. We technically don't watch until May 16th, but we're already there. The it will be on the App Store as soon as we get some Apple reviewers to to be nice. But I'm on socials at Random Habit App everywhere, and it all points you to where you can download. But yeah, you just get it where you get all your apps. Random habit. It's amazing.

Jody Brooks 1:05:58

Random habit. And is that the easiest way to connect with you as well? How what's the easiest way if anybody wants to connect, reach out?

Roger Webb 1:06:07

Yeah, Random Habit App on all the socials. I'm Instagram is where I'm most most active, but you can find me on all the socials. Randomhabitapp.com is our website. Download the app, and there's a button to push to email me directly right in the app as well.

Jody Brooks 1:06:21

Amazing. And I will make sure that all of those things are in the show notes below. I always like to finish with this one question that all of my guests get. Is that if you could plant one seed in the mind of the listeners today that would grow over time, what would that seed be?

Roger Webb 1:06:40

That your failures are not your fault.

Jody Brooks 1:06:44

That is a beautiful final thought. Thank you, Roger. I want to thank you for this amazing episode, the your vulnerability, your sharing of your messy to your passion, and sharing with us random habit, which is amazing. I think for me, my biggest takeaways are that courage to step away from everything that was familiar, to stand there and have a blank canvas and to follow your dream. My biggest takeaway is gonna be that element of surrender and don't stand in the moment, flow in the moment. I think that's gonna resonate with me and a lot of the listeners for a very long time. So I thank you so much for your time today and sharing all of that with our listeners.

Roger Webb 1:07:41

Thank you, Jody. It was a pleasure.

Jody Brooks 1:07:43

Messy midlifers, that's the end of another episode. Remember, as always, it's not a crisis, it's a calling to connect. And in that moment when you choose to connect, that's your opportunity to become what you were always destined to be. You're never broken, you're always becoming. Until the next episode, take care. Thank you for spending this time with me on Messy Midlife. If this episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who might need to hear it today. You can find the show notes below and more resources at affectedcoaching.me. And just a little gentle reminder: Messi Midlife is good for information, reflection, and personal growth. If you have concerns about your physical or mental health, please reach out to a qualified professional. Until next time, take good care of yourself. And remember, mid life might be messy, but it's not a crisis, it's a calling.