Meet Dr William Thomas

Jody Brooks 0:00

At 42 he'd built his whole life around one identity and then that chapter started to close and he found himself asking the question that quietly terrifies most of us in midlife. Not what do I do now, but who am I? So he did something extraordinary, he put on a pair of running shoes. Nine months later he ran his first ever marathon and he didn't stop. Seven continents, including the North Pole, one of only a handful of people on Earth to have run the Grand Slam, every single continent, all of it starting at an age when most of us are telling ourselves it's far too late. My guest today is Dr. William Thomas, and his story is living proof that when one identity ends, you get to choose the next one on purpose. This one is a story full of hope. Welcome, messy midlifers. Answering the call to connect today is Dr. William Thomas. He started running at age 42 and completed his first marathon just nine months later. He went on to become one of the few people in the world to complete the Marathon Grand Slam, running a marathon on all seven continents and at the North Pole. Now 60 years old, he continues to run three to four marathons each year and has completed the About the World Marathon majors and the Mount Avarice Marathon, among many others. William's book, Cross the Lines, shares what he learned from his running journey that contributed to his health, his career, and his relationships. Will, thank you for answering the call to connect. I'm really excited for our conversation today. When I saw your profile and I read through it, it was so inspiring. And as the conversation goes today, I know that there'll be different bits in it. I think the key thing for me was when often in midlife, when we see these people who become elite athletes or do these amazing things, it feels a bit untouchable. And I'm sure what will come out in the conversation today is you have some really great approaches to it and an understanding. I'm gonna go straight in with the one is that you don't do 30 hours of training a week, um, and those kinds of and those things. So I was like, I have to talk to this man who's done all these epic things, but when you get behind that kind of that initial bit of reading it, there's a very different story behind it. So welcome. And as always, on the messy midlife, we start with that messy middle moment, that moment where that switch went, and what led you to that, and then in the second half of the show, we'll obviously then unpack the journey and and how it's changed. So, what was that messy middle moment, Will?

Dr William Thomas 2:57

I've had a I've had a messy life. I've had a messy career, but in a good way, in a good way. It's been a great kind of messy. And some of the points may not seem so great at first flush, but I've always unpacked the really good things from each experience. So the way I got started running, of course, starting at 42 is a little bit late in life, and for a lot of people, that's when they start to think about stopping running and doing something a little more easier on the knees. But in

Afghanistan Sparked Fitness

Dr William Thomas 3:29

my case, I was in the U.S. Air Force, I was an officer in the Air Force, and I had spent a couple of months in Afghanistan in 2007 on a just a special assignment. So I wasn't there for very long. But I was working mostly with some people from the U.S. Army, and prior to that, physical fitness had not been at the top of my list. As long as I could manage to pass the annual physical fitness test, I figured I was fine. I didn't need to worry about more than that. If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum, right? I got over there to Afghanistan and I was with these people who did take fitness a lot more seriously. And so each day when we got back to our base camp, they would go to work out and I would just go with them because it wasn't anything else to do anyway, so I might as well. By the time I got back to the States, and I was living in Washington, D.C. at the time, I realized I was in better shape than I had been in in quite some time. And I realized I'd like to keep that, I'd like to hold on to that. But I also knew myself, and I knew that if I started working out or started running or doing whatever, that after a couple of months I'd probably get bored with it and I'd get distracted and I'd give it up and go do something

First Marathon Commitment

Dr William Thomas 4:47

else. I was talking to a friend about it. I was talking to my friend Ethan about this, and Ethan had just run his first marathon there in DC, and he said, Why don't you do this? Why don't you sign up to run this marathon with me in a few months and tell everybody you're gonna do it? And that's what really changed my life. That conversation, in fact, that line, tell everybody you're gonna do it, is really what changed my life. Because by setting the marathon as a goal, I had a target, I had something to aim for. I was able to kind of clarify some of that messiness and have something to focus on. And then by telling people I was gonna do it, I had accountability. I couldn't back out, I couldn't give up because I had just told the world through Facebook, that was how you did it at the time, that I was gonna go do this thing. And so if I backed out, I was gonna look really bad. And so I pressed on and I continued and I did it, and I thought it would just be one marathon, and now I'm approaching my 50th marathon, as it turns out.

Jody Brooks 5:50

The 50th marathon, you like it started out as just one and now it's 50. And there was a couple of bits there that really stuck out for me. How I loved that again, our perception quite often of people who are in the military are of these people in peak physical fitness, you know, very much it's horrible, but we have that stereotype, and so I loved the fact that you said that. No, I did the minimum. What was really lovely about that as well is how you surrounded by people, and I think there's a lot to be said for that. You know, a great believer is you know, what you surround yourself with is what you become in a lot of senses, and so it was interesting. There was nothing else to do. I surrounded myself with these people, and there wasn't an objective to be fitter or healthier, but in doing that, you became that, and then this acknowledgement of actually this is what I like. When we had the conversation, this also happened at a pivotal moment that made you start to be very aware about your identity shifting. How long were you in the military?

Dr William Thomas 6:49

So I was in for 21 years. I went in right after university, pretty within a few months after graduating. And yeah, was in for just over 21 years.

Retirement Identity Shift

Jody Brooks 7:00

And am I right in thinking that this coincides with you realizing that you were about to leave that career? So when I talk about identity, there was this shift that you were and quite early in some respects, facing that word that was retirement, even if it wasn't retirement, it was going to be something else. But 21 years of having an identity locked in that to suddenly go, I don't know what comes next, is that part of the shift as well?

Dr William Thomas 7:26

It absolutely is. I was within a couple of years of my expected retirement date when I thought I would be retiring from the Air Force. When I picked up running, and I will admit that my identity was tied up in being in the military. And that was just that was how I was known. And honestly, I think that's how I knew myself. But at some point, that's gonna come to an end. And whether it's after four years or 20 years or 30 years or however long you stay in, at some point you're gonna leave. And your identity needs to shift. And so I started thinking about what that was going to look like. And running became at first an important part of my identity, and now I would say it's the core element really of my identity. It's the only constant over the last 15 years or so has been running. I think it's valuable to start giving some thought to the next chapter, especially as you know you're getting within a year or two of one chapter closing. It's good to be thinking about what comes next because you don't want to be sitting there on the day you retire and then say, now what? Because then you're really at a loss. It's it's good to be thinking about it in advance. You don't have to have specific plans, I don't think. I I certainly before I retired, I didn't think, oh, I'm gonna go live overseas and I'm gonna run marathons at the North Foul and all that. I didn't have all the details worked out. But I knew I was gonna need to find something else that was important in my life beyond being in the military. And it helped a lot that I started thinking about that in advance because it gave me time to develop that identity, not just take the first thought that came along after retirement, but instead be building up towards something instead of just leaving something behind.

Jody Brooks 8:52

It's really interesting there, listening to you talk. A lot of people in midlife experience this shift, but in modern day we don't have those benchmarks. So as I was listening, there was a benchmark for you. There was a very clear division going to happen. And I think what happens for a lot of people, we experience this shift in us, but no longer there's this external mark. You know, here in the UK, retirement has gone up and up. I talk about it as a Gen X myself. What I thought 50 was when I was 10, I got to 50 and was this is not familiar territory. My concept of 50 was built on something that was now 40 years old. But I'd spent my entire life working towards this image for 40 years of what 50 would be, and then you get there and it doesn't exist. So it was really interesting listening to you there. One of the things that I try and do with clients is get them to do that division and that benchmark. And you said something there that I thought was beautiful about the next chapter, and that at that point you just acknowledged that it was a blank page, it was a new beginning, and you could write on it whatever you wanted. You didn't know what you were going to write on it at that point, you didn't know it was gonna be 50 marathons, but you knew you were gonna write on it, and that's what I say to clients. The power is to understand that you've turned the page, it is a blank page, and you get to write it. So it was really useful for me to hear you talk about it in that context of yeah, there was a very much a demarcation line which allowed you to prepare for it in some senses, whereas for a lot of people it just creeps up on them and they go through the transition without realizing there was a transition, kids leave home, career changes, or the reality of another 15 years at work, and that's frightening.

Dr William Thomas 10:38

Yeah,

Blank Page Mindset

Dr William Thomas 10:39

it is, and I think having that blank page that you talked about can be very scary because it's blank, or it can be really exciting because it's blank. It really depends on how you look at it. For me, it was exciting because I knew that I got to have more control over what I was going to write on that page than I had in the previous 21 years. I had shaped a pretty interesting, at least interesting for me, career in the military, but I was still in the military. You know, there were still a lot of boundaries, a lot of limitations on what I could do, and suddenly those were gone, and that blank page became an opportunity, not something to be scared of. Uh but I do want to go back to something that you just mentioned, we're looking for those benchmarks, when we're going to be transitioning from one part of our life to the next, I was fortunate that I knew there was a pretty clear one, okay, retirement from the military. Not everybody has those. But also sometimes those transitions come up when we don't expect it. And I've been working in the tech sector for the last few years and got laid off last year. And for a lot of people, that was a big transition for them that they were not expecting. And if they haven't given any thought to what comes next, then that's going to be really scary. But if they have thought about what their next chapter could be, then suddenly that severance package could be a great opportunity. It just it really depends on how well prepared you are for that transition.

Anchors Through Change

Jody Brooks 12:03

And obviously, you by this time have got the running, which gave you a direction because it's all about having a direction when you're running. But do you think that also having this direction that was separate to all of that meant that you were still you still had a direction? When we have those big shifts that are beyond our control, if we don't have something we're anchored in, then the whole lot does cave. So if your direction has been your career solely, or raising children, or your marriage, the moment those disappear, you become directionless if there's not one thing that your is your direction and purpose.

Dr William Thomas 12:43

That's true. And I think the more control you can have over that core element of your direction, the better. The more that you can make something that you control a key aspect of your identity and of your life, the better that is, because there are so many things that are outside of your control. And those could be taken away or those could change anytime. So it's helpful to have something that you actually do exercise control over. And for me, running has certainly been that. Since leaving the military, uh I've moved overseas, I've lived in three different countries in the last 14 years. I've had my own business, I've worked for corporate. A lot of those things have changed, but what hasn't changed is that I'm still running three to four marathons a year. Even that is not entirely within my control. Okay, COVID came along, and suddenly there were no marathons around the world. But I could still go out and run. And so even though the marathons were taken away from me, the running was not. And that experience helped reinforce the value of running itself as opposed to marathon per se. And uh yeah, really, there was a lot of value in having something that I controlled and I could call my own.

Jody Brooks 13:55

Just there, it's interesting you were saying in the military the control was quite external. And that must have been a huge shift because the control was essentially given to you, you know, that's part of being in the military. It's instruction-led, control-led, you know, all of those, and it's an external thing on you that you abide by that. I love that you almost recognized your need for control, but switched it to something you controlled in that narrative, and it became the running. And I talk to clients about that an awful lot of the time is you know, these inner core values that we have are multifaceted, and we can answer them in different arenas. And so I think it shines out there that you you just pivoted that to I'm someone that likes an element of control. There's a value in me that recognises that I'm not now receiving it, so I'll actually create it. It's kind of it's just so interesting how this pivot occurred for you, and you really didn't approach it as a crisis in all of it. I just hear that this is very much you stood there and went, I need to connect then, and pivoted in that direction. So you just so I'm clear that so you the running started just before you left the military or after you left the military.

Dr William Thomas 15:08

Just before.

Jody Brooks 15:09

Just before.

Dr William Thomas 15:09

Yeah, so I ran my first few marathons while I was still in the military. Yeah, yeah.

Jody Brooks 15:13

I love that you didn't just you just merged one over to the other. Like it's like I slide it in so that transition becomes much easier. And I think there's a lot in that for listeners to hear. Sometimes we avoid it. You took it head on, you very clearly make a strategy, have a plan, enact it. But I think a lot of people avoid it. I had a conversation yesterday where we talked about surrender, and this was actually around addiction. It was about how a lot of people say it was only when I surrendered, and I do some work in addiction, and I find it a weird phrase because I'm like, but you say you surrendered, but you then did the biggest battle you've ever had. You did the opposite of surrendering. You did the opposite of surrendering. And the guy that I was talking to said, Yeah, but what you're doing is you're surrendering to the fact that you have to go to war. Instead of thinking that you can't do it, you don't have to do that battle, you're surrendering to the resistance, you're surrendering, resisting the fact that I actually have to go to war. And from that, I think there's a huge amount in it for everybody is that we avoid this. You didn't. You very clearly saw this pivotal point coming and almost surrendered to it and transitioned this way out. Whereas I talk with clients all the time, you know, it's no shock that your kids were going to go to university and you were going to be in a house by yourself. And you know, these things you knew they were coming, but you essentially didn't surrender to that fact. You just pretended it wasn't existing. So I think there's a lot of power in seeing your journey for the listeners and understanding that you know that your foresight pivoted you through that. On the back of that, I'm interested to know if you hadn't found running, what do you think would have happened?

If Not Running Then What

Dr William Thomas 17:02

That is a very good question. So I spent part of my career in the military teaching at the U.S. Air Force Academy. I was a professor there for about seven years. And when I retired, I went on to teach at Georgetown University. I think that if I hadn't picked up running, I probably would, if not be teaching full-time, I would at least be trying to teach at a university as an adjunct professor. In fact, one reason I haven't tried to do that is it gets in the way of running. Because if I'm on a semester class schedule, it's hard for me to say, oh, sorry, I've got to fly off to Australia for a few days to run a marathon. I'll be back. So rather than being locked into that schedule, I've uh I've given myself some flexibility by not doing that. But if I wasn't running, I think I would probably be making more of an effort to uh to be teaching full-time or part-time. Yeah. So there would always be something, I think, but it might not be as tiring as what I'm doing.

Jody Brooks 17:58

Um do you think it would have been as fulfilling, I suppose, is my question on the end of that.

Dr William Thomas 18:05

I don't think that it would have been. And let me preface that by saying I love teaching. I absolutely loved teaching at the university level. I still enjoy, of course, teaching workshops as part of my role as an executive coach and a leadership trainer. I I love getting in front of a classroom and helping people see things that they hadn't seen before, helping them understand themselves better. I absolutely love that. One of the things that I think running gives me that teaching didn't is that I've had a chance to do some very unusual things as a runner, whereas as a university professor, I would have been just one of a big collection of a faculty. I probably would never have gone to the North Pole as a university professor. I probably would have never found myself at the Everest Base Camp as a university professor. And so I do think that the experiences and the adventures that I've had have given me something that, as much as I love teaching, I don't think teaching would have given me.

Jody Brooks 18:59

Again, I think we often find ourselves replacing one thing for something that's alike, and that often leads to people not really answering the call to connect. And you then find that you need resilience because you're on a hamster wheel and you've got to keep running. And that was secretly behind my question is I'm sat here, I've had a pre-interview with you, I'm chatting to you, and I'm and I already feel if he'd have got stuck in a university, that would have been a crime in itself because you know that's why I asked the question on fulfillment. But I've seen other people do that is replace, you know, one thing for another, but still not find that fulfillment in it. And so that was behind my question, and that what it really takes is courage, and we get resilience and courage mixed up. It takes resilience to stay and keep fighting, but it takes courage to make a difference and change. And I think looking on, I would say that you definitely chose courage in that moment to go and run those

Writing Cross The Lines

Jody Brooks 19:54

marathons.

Dr William Thomas 19:54

Oh, I was just thinking that that actually that's one of the reasons I wrote the book was to be able to maybe fill the gap that I, you know, that I don't get to fill because I'm not teaching. So I wanted to be able to share these lessons, I wanted to be able to share my experiences and try to motivate people to do things or inspire them to do things in the way that I would have wanted to in a classroom. And now, since I've had all of these adventures, I want to still be able to make use of those in a way that is good for other people or that provides some value to other people. And so that's where writing came from, I think. Yeah. So I'm still trying to try to get all the benefits of everything, even though I don't get to do absolutely everything.

Jody Brooks 20:33

Yeah. I think that goes back again to that bit that there are, you know, when we understand what our values are and what we need, it becomes much easier to see where we can gain that. Before we came on today, we were chatting, and I said podcasting for me had become one of those things. Had a value and a need that wasn't being fulfilled, and through podcasting, I've fulfilled that need. So sometimes that's what we're saying is we have to step outside of and not do what's familiar and have the courage to go and do something entirely different, but aligned to who we are still. I feel that in that conversation, there's a really clear understanding now of that messy middle moment, what delivered you there. When I do the show, it's interesting how we edge, and then there's always one bit where, guided by the guests, I feel like we come to the point where we're going into the future as you brought your brook up. Coming to the end of this bit of your messy middle, what shines out for me is that element of courage, the foresight to look ahead and be aware of a transition that was coming, and to not pretend it wasn't coming, but to initiate an action plan and allow yourself a smooth transition from one to the other, and to see that blank page as exciting, not frightening, not care about essentially what was going on it, but to just look at the excitement of that page. Is there anything in the messy middle moment that we haven't touched on that I haven't given just? To correctly before we move on to will now and the more of the running journey and how that's transpired.

Try Things In Transition

Dr William Thomas 22:09

I think maybe just the most important piece to take out of all of this is to see transitions and see messiness as an opportunity. As an opportunity to, you know, to write your next chapter, to fill that blank page, to understand yourself better, to try new things and see what works for you. There's a good chance that the first thing you do isn't going to work, isn't going to be the right thing for you. I could have tried running and said, well, okay, I'm not doing that again. You know, um, but I was fortunate. It turned out to be something that I enjoyed. But you know, don't be afraid of trying those new things, um, just to see what works for you. And if if something doesn't, then go on and try something else. But really look at this messiness as an opportunity to shape the next stage in your life rather than being afraid of it and and not not knowing what's going to come next.

Jody Brooks 23:03

That's an absolutely perfect way to end this segment as we sit in this messy bit. But before we go and then discuss what you did with that opportunity, we'll take a few moments, catch our breath and pause, and we'll hear about what Will did with that opportunity after the break. Before we keep going, I want to invite you into something a little more personal. If Messy Midlife is speaking to you, you don't have to walk through this season alone. You can join the authentic life community. A space to connect with me, connect with others, and explore the nine principles of authentic loving. It's a place for honest conversation, gentle support, and real connection without judgment. If that sounds like what you need, come and join us at authenticcoaching.com and look for the authentic life community. Okay, let's get back to today's episode. Welcome back, messy midlifers. Uh

Hardest Part Start Line

Jody Brooks 24:02

so we heard so much about transition, and Will left us with that beautiful description at the end about being brave enough to sit in the messiness. I say it all the time: the messy middle bit is truly where the creativity is and the transformation is, and you have to sit in the mess to make something new, and out of that creates amazing opportunities. We heard a little bit in the first half of the show, but in the second half, to really look at how that opportunity from the decision to run one marathon has now transpired into all of those other things. The one thing that stood out for me, not one, there were so many, so I can't to say one is not true. A line that stood out for me when I was doing my research was the bit where you said the hardest part is not crossing the finish line, it's getting to the start line. And I think that just as a sentence is powerful, and I'd love you to unpack that and share with us how that's led to the work that you do now, how you approach running now and tell your story.

Dr William Thomas 25:08

Everybody does tend to focus on the finish line. Uh that's the goal, that's the visible end point. As a runner, that's where you get your medal and your banana and your bottle of water. The finish line is really important. But you can never get to the finish line if you don't cross the starting line first. And I have found, not just for myself, but for a lot of people, that just getting to the starting line, taking the chance to try something new, to step out of the comfort zone, whatever cliche you want to use, that's hard to do. And it can be even harder than finishing the race. Starting the race can be even harder than finishing. I can remember, you know, 10 years or so before I started running. I had friends who ran. I had friends who ran marathons. And I remember saying, oh, I can't do that. I can't do that. And if I continued to believe that, I wouldn't have had nearly the fun that I've had these last 18 years. Being able to, I think, first of all, just overcome your own self-doubt and your own self-criticism is a very difficult thing for a lot of people to do. Um but then also figuring out where something new fits into your life and where you're going to find the time for it is another big challenge. Um, you know, and I've seen some things, I mean, certainly things that have helped me get to that starting line. I think a big part of it was just being surrounded by people who helped me to be better, or who gave me suggestions, or who were standing by my side or running by my side to uh to help me see what I was capable of doing. Um that helped me overcome that self-doubt. It helped me find ways to incorporate this new experience into my life and make the time for it. And uh really I think at the end of the day, it's come down to the people around me who uh who have helped me get to that starting line. And then after that, they take off because they're a lot faster than I am. Uh but we all still make it to the finish line in most cases.

Jody Brooks 27:08

Yeah.

Environment Shapes Growth

Jody Brooks 27:09

I think I say again, coaching, w we're often so obsessed about the destination that we forget to enjoy the journey. And you know, and we so desperately focused on this bit in the distance that we don't see the richness of how we got there. And so when I read that quote, it really shone that out to me. It's interesting again that you say there, the people around you going back to Afghanistan and how the people around you there gave you without you you even knowing it, almost projected you on that journey. And so I think it's another thing. How important would you say, you know, environment and those people is to acknowledging where you are and where you want to go?

Dr William Thomas 27:57

I think those people have been very important, whether it's the the army soldiers who unknowingly spark some motivation, um, or the friends who said, Hey, why don't you do this, why don't you try that, um, and then supported me along the way. Uh, I think those people have been incredibly important. And truthfully, as I look back over the years, not just at the running, but at everything else, you know, the moving around and starting a business and all of that, I find that having people for me who are supportive, even if they haven't done this themselves, even if they don't have any specific suggestions or skills that they bring to it, if they're just giving me that thumbs up, if they're just checking in regularly, that helps keep my motivation level going when it comes to doing new things. Uh something I do find to be really valuable, if you want to have a more interesting life, if you don't want to get stuck in a rut, is have people around you who have different interests than you. I I think it's easy to just look at people who, you know, like the same movies as you and respond the same way on social media as you do, and basically put yourself into an echo chamber. But if you really want to have an interesting life, find people who do something different. And that's not to say that you need to go do that, but at least you get exposed to it and you get the opportunity to see if maybe that's something you want to try. I've got friends who do triathlons, and I'm like, good for you. I don't want to do that. But if I was only around runners, I'd have a much more limited view of what's possible and what's out there. I I think it's really useful to surround yourself with people who have a variety of interests so you can get a sense of just how big the world is and where you might find something that's going to interest you.

Jody Brooks 29:43

You say that is how big the world is, and the bigger you make the world, I suppose, the greater the opportunity you allow yourself to see rather than the tunnel vision. And you touched on it there as well. That that's the unfortunate thing of social media is you end up very quickly in an echo chamber. I say to people, be careful what you look at, be careful what you like, because within a month, that's all you'll see. And then you'll think the whole world is that, and the whole world is much bigger than that. So just be very careful, you know. I think it's interesting that you say creating this very varied world around you. I want to go back to the piece in there about self-belief and trust in yourself and believing you can do it. What advice as someone who's gone on to do 50 marathons and Antarctica and Everest, what advice could you give someone about self-belief to get them to that first start line?

Self Belief And Naysayers

Dr William Thomas 30:36

I would say that you're gonna have people tell you that you can't do something, or they're gonna question why you would want to do something because it's not something they would want to do. You need to learn how to tune some of those people out because ultimately you are the one who needs to decide what you're capable of and what you want to do and where your interests are going to lie. So don't let other people make those decisions for you. I'm not saying surround yourself with a bunch of yes men. But you know, if somebody is is actually curious and wants to know why you want to go do something or why you want to try something, then that's a great conversation to have because by explaining it yourself, you understand it a little bit better. But if they continue to pester you with, gosh, why would anybody want to do that? Or you or tell you you can't do that, ultimately it helps to move those people out of your life or at least off to the sidelines. Um because, like I said, ultimately you know yourself better than anybody else does, and you can make the decisions for yourself. It's something that actually came up last week in a conversation with somebody. Um she just kept saying, Well, well, well, why are you doing that? Why why wouldn't you do this? You should do this instead. And I thought, I've given this a lot of thought. I've explained to you why I've made the decision I've made. You don't need to keep asking me about it as if I'm an idiot and haven't thought about it. Uh, and so I won't be having those conversations with her anymore. So, yeah, I think it's important to listen to yourself before before you listen to others.

Jody Brooks 32:05

It leans in again to having this varied group of people around you so that you're not in an echo chamber, so that all you're not hearing is that same message. And I love that you say there that quite often this is not about you, it's about their insecurities. It's more about hang on, if you're gonna go and run a marathon, then I'm gonna feel bad that I haven't run a marathon. And actually, you're gonna move the goalpost. So I'm gonna discourage you from that achievement because I don't want to not achieve it, like it frightens me. Would you say that's quite real about it as well?

Dr William Thomas 32:37

Absolutely. And in fact, I've identified exactly that factor in a few people who have been very dismissive of what I've been trying to do, or who have tried to steer me away, or they roll their eyes when I say this is my next goal. And I've realized in at least a few cases that it's jealousy that they didn't do it when they were younger. It's an insecurity. Gosh, if you can do this, then I suppose I could, but I haven't done it. So what does that say about me? I think there's a lot of things going on in people's heads when they try to talk you out of something or try to denigrate something that you're planning. You can't let yourself be guided by other people's insecurities. You need to be guided by your own insecurities, but also your own objectives and your own goals.

Jody Brooks 33:19

You know, for me, the one that really shows up for me is around drink, and I don't drink alcohol anymore. It just was a decision that I made. And it's very funny when you're out in a social setting. People are uncomfortable with the fact that you don't drink. And I now have this standard line, which is you know, people will say, What are you drinking? I'll just say I'd just have a sparkling water. Do you want a real drink? I want a sparkling water in a bottle and a glass, which I think makes it real. I wasn't asking for an imaginary drink. Yeah, but a proper drink. Last time I checked, water was probably the most proper drink on this planet. But I allowed, you know, in that self-trust thing, I allowed it to question me, you know. And people really push it. It's so funny. And I think you have to be really resilient and anchored in your truth in that moment, which is you know what you're saying, because in the end somebody was really insistent about it, and I just said, I'm really unsure. Are you not enjoying yourself? And they said, No, I'm having a great time. So I said, Great, and I'm really having a great time, and I'm happy you're having a great time. But I don't understand why my drinking alcohol will make you have a better time. And they went, Well, it won't. So I said, So can we leave the conversation? Maybe it's that coaching ability to just hold a mirror up sometimes and go, This is really about you, so I'm just gonna hold that there for you for a few minutes. With all of these conversations that I have, the purpose is to let people see people that we see have these huge successes are just human and face the same battles. You know, there's no reason why anybody listening to this podcast can't get to that starting line. And you don't have to run 50 marathons, you just have to decide what it is for you.

Dr William Thomas 35:16

And that's that's a message that I really do try to communicate is, you know, as you said at the beginning, I'm not an elite athlete, I don't train 30 hours a week. Uh, I'm a middle-aged consultant. I'm 60, I don't know if I'm middle-aged, but I am a middle-aged consultant who's out here doing this, and if I can do this, then anybody can do whatever they set out to do, whether it's running marathons or getting an advanced degree or starting a family or starting a business, whatever they set their minds to. There's nothing special about me. I just have some very cool results. And so anybody can have really cool results in their life.

Jody Brooks 35:51

Yeah. You touched on it before the break as well, in your book Crossing the Lines, and you said there that you knew the book had answered another part of you, which was to share that message. In the book Crossing the Lines, does it then lean into what you're saying there? Is it's not about crossing the finishing line as a runner, it's about whatever, you know, the things that took you on your journey that somebody reading it could apply to whatever they decide is their journey.

Book Lessons And Takeaways

Dr William Thomas 36:17

Absolutely. So the way the book is laid out, there's an introductory chapter, which is autobiographical, I was born, and then we got to this point. And then there's there's there's a second chapter, which is which I call 26.2 lessons that I've learned from running marathons. And those are lessons that that came from running, but they don't have to apply to running. They could apply to relationships, they could apply to your business, they could apply to other aspects of your personal life, or any, you know, any goal that you're that you're pursuing. And then as I go through the remaining chapters, there's a chapter for each continent and then one for the North Pole. And uh, you know, it talks in there about not just the running, but all the other things that were going on in my life, job transitions, moving around the world, all of that. And so I think that there are lessons in there that people can take and apply to different aspects of their lives. They don't have to be marathonners, uh, they don't have to be pursuing any kind of physical fitness goal at all. Uh there are a lot of things that that require resilience, that require some degree of focus, that require flexibility. And these are all lessons that I talk about and uh and how to apply them. And I hope people will take something away from that book that they can use

Three Hardest Lessons

Dr William Thomas 37:27

no matter what they're doing.

Jody Brooks 37:28

So you say there are 22 lessons. I'm gonna ask a double-sided question now. You say there are 22 lessons in that journey. Which would you say were the three hardest lessons? And did the environment in which you learned them lean into how hard the lessons were?

Dr William Thomas 37:47

Yeah, so um first lesson I would say is run the mile that you're in. And what I mean by that is as much as it's important to have an eye on the future and where you want to go, you first need to take care of whatever's right in front of you. So if I'm in mile seven of a marathon, I can't be worried about mile 24. I need to focus on mile eight and then focus on mile nine. Because if I don't get

Mindset And Control

Dr William Thomas 38:14

through those, I'm never gonna get to mile 24. So run the mile that you're in is about focusing on the things that are in front of you and taking care of those so that you can get to that future that you have your eye

Connect The Dots

Dr William Thomas 38:27

on. The second one that I would recommend is that a lot of things make sense after the fact. So I've had a lot of transitions, a lot of changes through the years, some of them good, some of them bad. And with the bad ones, a lot of times you look at it and say, oh my gosh, you know, that's that's not great. Um but then afterwards you can look back and you can connect the dots and see where even the bad experiences got you to where you are now. And there is something positive to take away from those bad experiences. So with that in mind, the next time you face a bad experience, look for the positives and try to focus on those more so than the negatives if you can. Um that came in handy for me last year when I got laid off from the tech sector. You know, a lot of people look at a layoff as a bad thing and for obvious reasons. I'll tell you what, I had the best night's sleep I'd had in months the night that I found out I was getting laid off because I saw the opportunities it was going to create for me. Um I just I looked for the positives, you know, and and that was that was really, really important. As far as uh a third lesson, I think, would be to have some backup plans as you

Backup Plans Not Risk

Dr William Thomas 39:48

go along. Now, I've had people tell me in the last few years there there's a common theme out there that I see in LinkedIn posts. It says, Well, I don't want to have a plan B because that'll distract me from my plan A, that'll distract me from my goal. And I don't think that's true. I think have multiple ways to get to your goal. That's what I talk about when I talk about having a backup plan or a contingency plan. Things aren't always gonna work out the way you want them to. And you don't want to have just one path to success and a million paths to failure. It helps to have multiple paths to success and be thinking about what you're gonna do if this happens or if that happens. So, again, as I was pursuing the Grand Slam, I had done most of the continents, but not quite all of them, and then suddenly I quit my job. I started my own business. I moved from Singapore to Thailand. A lot of things changed that I had not been planning on, but I still had a goal in front of me. I just needed to change the path I was going to take to get there, change the races I was gonna do, change the schedule I was gonna operate under, change how much I could afford to spend on them. Um, so having that alternative plan, that backup plan is I think really valuable when you're setting a big goal for yourself. Yeah. So those are three big ones that I would

Purpose Versus Goals

Dr William Thomas 41:07

take away from that.

Jody Brooks 41:08

I love that you say that. It's another thing when I work with clients that I talk about, I actually compare it to satellite navigation. And I say you're in the car you're driving, and you've set your destination and it gives you your route, and then all of a sudden it comes up with a better one because the route you're on, there's an accident and you can't go any further. You don't stubbornly say, No, I'm gonna sit in the traffic. You accept that you need to take the other route, and but the destination hasn't changed, and I think that's what shines out in that. And you said about those LinkedIn posts is people are interpreting it as this means that I'm giving up on my purpose. But I think that's the difference when you have a purpose. A goal is very different to a purpose. A goal should fulfil your purpose, it should help you get closer to your purpose, but your a goal shouldn't be your purpose, and you know that essentially if you can't have a plan B, then I would say you've maybe got a goal as your purpose rather than your purpose being something that sits as a North Star ahead of it. I'm gonna go back to the question, and you've run in some pretty intense environments. So there are two bits that stand out, and it stood out because of that run the mile you're in. And as you were saying that, I was thinking, you know, it's really interesting because it was you started running and it was nine months, am I correct, before the first marathon.

Hardest Marathon Moments

Jody Brooks 42:34

So if each of those months was a mile, that was nine miles to be in as you approached that journey. And then the Grand Slam was a six-year journey, and so very much in that, you know, as you said there and trying to relate it, yes, it's still to running, but to people is that was that ability to have the purpose, the destination, but appreciate the journey as you go in all of those small steps and you know effectively deliver you up to the six years, but obviously, in that grand slam, in that you have, as I say, run in some pretty intense environments. What would you say was the hardest Everest Antarctica, or is there one that actually is surprisingly harder that isn't out of those two?

Dr William Thomas 43:22

I would say that the Everest Marathon was probably the hardest physical experience of my life. And I ran that in 2024, so I was 58 years old at that point. Um, and that is, for those who aren't familiar with it, it's first involves a nine-day trek up to the Everest base camp. Um, then you spend the night, and that's the starting line, and then you come running back down the side of the mountain uh 42 kilometers the next day. Uh I was the last place finisher in that race at 14 hours, 23 minutes, and 20 seconds. And I would just, as a sideline,

Everest Lessons Acceptance

Dr William Thomas 43:58

I would point out the the key thing. Lesson I took away from that is that last place finisher is still a finisher. And so I'm, you know, happy to wear the metal, happy to wear the t-shirt. Even though I came in two hours after sunset, you know, I finished it. Not everybody did. So, you know, I take pride in that. But I would say that was my most difficult physical experience because of the terrain, because of the lack of oxygen, because of the changing weather on the way back down the mountain. Uh it was just, it was, it was mind-boggling. Having said that, the North

Antarctica Surprise Challenge

Dr William Thomas 44:31

Pole marathon, which was the last one of the uh the Grand Slam, and that was back in 2016, April 2016, that turned out to be a lot more challenging, just midway during the race. You know, I I walked into that, and I had already run in Antarctica a year and a half earlier in similar conditions. It was about minus 30 Celsius, which I think is about minus 17 or 18 Fahrenheit. Uh, we had high winds, we were running on snow and ice. And I got into the North Pole thinking, well, hey, I've already done something like this, so this will be relatively easy. And I got through the first 32 kilometers, and it was, I mean, not easy, but it was it was challenging, but it was doable. And I was actually running quite a bit faster than I had in Antarctica. And I thought, well, this is great. You know, I'm gonna beat my Antarctica time, which was pretty slow, I will admit. Um I said, I'm gonna beat my Antarctica time. And then I got into the final 10 kilometers of the race, and the surface area changed dramatically. And the race director was kind of laughing about this on the official video later. Um, but I went from running on packed snow and ice for 32K to running through knee-deep snow through the final 10K. And I think that was challenging for me, not just physically, but mentally as well, because I had been running so well in the first 32 kilometers, the first few hours, and I thought, ha ha, this is great, I'm gonna do so well. And then I was faced with a sudden drastic change in the running surface. And and I think it was more of a mental challenge at that point than a physical challenge, um, just adjusting to that and you know, pushing myself on, pushing myself through to the end. And I remember telling myself, I said, Well, I've got to finish because I can't see that I'm gonna come back to the North Pole anytime soon. So I got to get this done. And you you really dig in and find your motivation. Um, in whatever dark, recessed corner of your body it sits, you you find whatever it takes to push you through that. And I knew I needed to finish it, not just because I probably wasn't gonna come back to the pole, but because I'd spent six years getting to this point, and there was no way that I was gonna drop out of this now. So yeah, physically I'd say Everest was the toughest. Um mentally, though, the North Pole turned out to be, I'd say, my hardest experience.

Jody Brooks 46:58

Listening to that there, the interesting that the environment shifted and the environment completely changed that whole thing. But what resonated for me there was you pushed through it by almost digging back to all of those miles that you'd been in for six years. Because you had always been in the mile you're in in that six-year journey. That then suddenly became this powerful thing to push you beyond it. To would it be fair to say it almost minimized that moment and made it smaller than it was because of all of the miles that had led you to that point, and you were able to reflect on that in that moment.

Dr William Thomas 47:39

I think that was absolutely the case because I certainly had plenty of time to reflect because I was out there for a long time. Um, but yeah, I was thinking back to my very first marathon and to the people that got me started. I was thinking back to the traveling that I had done to, you know, countries I'd never been to before. I was thinking about how I had basically rearranged my life around the Grand Slam. And going back to all of those different episodes and and different commitments that I'd made, it did sort of reduce the stress of this one. You know, when I got into this situation, I was like, well, okay, yeah, this is tough, and I'm kind of trudging through the snow, but I you know, I was on a bus that ran out of gas in Rio de Janeiro on the way to the starting line. And I was facing dehydration in Antarctica two years ago, and through all these other things. And you start to realize that, well, if I can get through that and all the stuff that's that's led me to here, if I can get through all of those incidents and episodes, I can handle this. This is snow, big deal. It was a big deal, but I was able in my own mind to minimize it.

Jody Brooks 48:50

Yeah, but it's interesting there as well, isn't it? That in that as you describe it, there's almost an element of visually taking yourself to another environment because the environment you were in was essentially out of your control. And like you say, that's it, I just had to do that. So it's interesting how you then reflect back on all of those other environments and go back to those moments that almost gives you a an image beyond the one you're in that guides you out of it. Having said that, what did it take to meet the physical challenge then of Everest? If that was almost just saying there, that was very much a mental challenge that you pushed through in Antarctica. What was it that you used for the physical challenge?

Dr William Thomas 49:38

Everest was a real challenge because,

Training For Everest

Dr William Thomas 49:42

of course, I live in Singapore and we're at about zero feet sea level, above sea level. And you know, the Everest base camp is more than 15,000 feet above sea level. Um so it uh you know, there was no way to really practice for that for for the oxygen deprivation. Um, we don't have any mountains here in Singapore. We we have a hill that we call a mountain, but it's not. So practicing on the inclines um was not really an option. So I you know I prepared as best as I could before going up there, but I think part of what helped me with the physical challenge was recognizing that this is gonna be unique, and I just need to accept that and get over it. And uh and and and and press on, you know, when um uh when I'm faced with uh with the challenge of running down the mountainside. Um and it's not exactly just down the mountainside, that's something that I thought was gonna be the case that you know you go up like this, you come down like that. That's not the way it works. You come down like this. And I I think what finally pushed me through there was just uh the preparation that I had done, you know, the long distances that I had run here. Um and again, I think the recognition that I've been in challenging places before. And if I could do this there, then I know that physically I'm capable of it. I just need to uh I just need to you know empty the tank out here on the mountain. I need to leave everything out here and and not try and conserve too much energy uh at the finish line. I need to get to the finish line on empty. And um, and that's what I did, and I just pushed on through. Now I will say one of the one of the things that left me a little concerned in that race, of course, I was slower and I was towards the back of the pack. I couldn't even see the pack. Um knowing that I was going the right direction was a bit of a concern for me. Uh the trail was marked, but it's not like it was marked often. So I think one of the things that may have slowed me down, but then ultimately helped me in the end, was I did slow down a bit in the early stage, or I guess around the middle stages, because I wasn't sure I was going the right way. And so I was slowing down looking for the the trail markers. And so as a result, as you know, after sunset, I had a couple of hours running left to do, but I still had energy at that point, I think, because I had paced myself a bit and I had accepted the fact that I was going to be slow. So sometimes, you know, again, I think going back to what you said about the goal and the purpose, um, you know, if my goal had been to run this in a fast time, I would, or if that had been my purpose, I would have been in big trouble. But my purpose was just to run it. Not to run it in any particular time, not to, you know, stand on the podium or anything like that. It was just to run it. And I do think that that helped me with the pacing in the middle stages, which then helped me have the energy to get into the finish line at the end.

Jody Brooks 52:51

It very powerfully sums up those key points. The you know, the toughest bit is getting to the starting line, and you know, it resonates. There wasn't one point in any of that you really talked about the the finish. You know, when we were talking at the beginning about, you know, we set this huge destination and I was just listening, and you know, you embody it in that bit, and in both of those examples, it was being in the mile you're in, but for two reasons almost. So is that at some point when you need to honour that journey, you can go back to that mile and you can appreciate that mile because it it had its own value, and there, as I mentioned, it as surrender, but you said the word there is acceptance, so rather than fighting it, you accepted it. Okay, this is gonna take everything I've got, this is gonna be a battle, it's gonna physically hurt, but I know I can do it. So there was no use of energy in trying to push it away. It was this is gonna hurt, but that's it. I know I can do it, and that whole journey of the run to the from the starting line to the finish to the journey that you've gone on, the Grand Slam to run in Antarctica. I'm gonna confess that when you said the Everest one, I did the same as you, and I was like, it was downhill, like that, and then I actually sat here and was like I bet it's not downhill like I think it's downhill, but there was a moment where I was like, it was downhill. So um but um I I mean I originally come from the mountains, so I'm very aware that they, you know, even when you're coming down the mountain, I always say sometimes that's harder. Um it's been an incredible conversation, incredibly rich. There are so many bits in it that I know I'm gonna take away. Certainly made me think about my approach to some of the things that I maybe need to put into my life. Is there anything as we head towards the finish line, having made it to the start? Is there anything now as we head towards the finish line of the show that I haven't brought up that you would like to bring up for the listeners?

Cant Today Yet

Dr William Thomas 54:56

There is a a key point that I want to I want people to think about. And I think especially as you get to the messy middle, i you start thinking about what comes next, and maybe you tell yourself, well, I can't do this or I can't do that. There's a lot of self-doubt. And I would say to keep in mind that just because you cannot do something today doesn't mean you cannot do it. The day that I started running, I could not have run a marathon. Okay, I could not have run the 26.2 miles. But clearly I could do it with the proper preparation, putting the time into it, putting the effort into it, uh, doing the things I needed to do. And so if you're if you're looking at what comes next in your life, if you're looking at that blank page and trying to figure out what to write on it, and you think to yourself, oh, I can't do this or I can't do that, maybe you can. Don't talk yourself out of something without giving it a try. And it may take time and it may take effort. It took me nine months to get ready for that first marathon, but I was able to do it. Something that I never truly imagined that I would be able to do. Uh, I was able to do it. And again, I'm nobody special. You know, if I can do this stuff, then I think anybody can do what they set out to do. They just need to figure out what it's gonna take to make that happen and then go forward and do it. So that's a key takeaway from me. Just because you cannot do something today doesn't mean you cannot do it.

Jody Brooks 56:20

I absolutely love that, and I think it's very true, and it maybe goes back to that thing about when we make a decision we're gonna do something, and people say you can't do that. I was sitting there thinking, do you know what? Next time someone says that to me, I'm gonna go, you're right, I can't do that today. I didn't say I was gonna do it today, I just said I'm gonna do it. So thank you for acknowledging. I'm very aware that I can't run a marathon today, but just because I can't do it today doesn't mean I can't do it. I think that's a very powerful phrase in itself. I ask everybody the same question at the end of the show, but before we do that, I just want to if I'm sure there will be listeners that want to reach out that want to connect with you. What is the best way for people to reach out, get the book, connect with you if they

Find Will Online

Jody Brooks 57:11

have more questions?

Dr William Thomas 57:12

Yeah, I think probably the most centralized place to find me would be on LinkedIn. If you just look for William Thomas PhD, I'm the only one with that exact name. So from there, that will also take you to the book. It will on Amazon, it will take you to my athlete page on Facebook. But just come find me on LinkedIn, connect up with me, and I'd love to hear other people's stories. So please link up with me there and let me hear what you're doing, and let me hear what you've got that that may inspire me to go do something new. I'd appreciate that.

Jody Brooks 57:41

And I say as a podcast host, as somebody that guests as well, everybody I have on the show and myself also encourage you to connect. I think there's a fear in people, like, oh, I'm not gonna message, they won't want to hear from me. And I can tell you now that actually it's almost the best thing that ever happens after an episode. I urge you, if Will has brought anything up that has inspired you, has made you think, etc., then please do reach out. I will put a link to his LinkedIn in the show notes. So all you need to do is scroll down and click and you can connect with him that way. So the final question: if you could plant a seed in the mind of the listeners today that over time would grow and bear fruit, what would that seed

Plant The Seed

Jody Brooks 58:26

be?

Dr William Thomas 58:26

I would say take this opportunity at this point in your life to figure out who you are and who you want to be. The messy middle is scary, it's nerve-wracking, but it's more than anything, I think it's an opportunity. And so take this opportunity to really try to understand yourself. You've probably had many years of people telling you who they think you are and who they think you should be. But as you see transitions coming up, and as you see yourself having more freedom to define yourself, put some thought into that. Try some new things and think a lot about your relations with others and how you interact with people and what motivates you. Really take the time to understand yourself and define yourself for the next stage, whatever that

Final Takeaways Farewell

Dr William Thomas 59:08

may be.

Jody Brooks 59:08

I think that's a beautiful way to end the show. Thank you so much, Will. I know that this is going to be an episode that inspires. And for me, I think my biggest takeaways are that acceptance that you spoke about. The biggest for me is that be in the mile, and how not only does that guide us moving forward, but sometimes understanding the miles that we've been in become the power that enable us to push through emotionally, and that having a destination allows you to have a let's not call it a plan B, but a route B, should you need it. And as you say there, that ability to be aware, to not avoid a transition, but to embrace a transition, to see it as a blank page and an opportunity to put new things onto it. As I always say, Messy Midlifers, it's not a crisis, it is a call in to connect. And remember, you're not broken, you are simply becoming the person that you were always destined to be. I'll see you in the next episode. Thanks for listening. Thank you for spending this time with me on Messy Midlife. If this episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who might need to hear it today. You can find the show notes below and more adultcoaching.com. Just the find of professional people, any other professional health technical. If you have to talk about your physical or mental health, take good care of yourself. But it's not a price, it's it's a core.