Welcome to Messy Midlife

Jody Brooks 0:00

The things you built, the business, the confidence, the version of yourself people see, they're starting to wobble, and the harder you hold on, the more it costs you. That's what happens when identity is built on performance. When the external things shift, and in midlife they always do. There's nothing underneath to catch you. This conversation is about what it looks like to stop holding it all together and finally start trusting yourself instead. This is Messy Midlife, it's not a crisis, it's a calling to connect. This is week one of trust, and today we discover that the court has been in session all along. Wes Towers built a life around achievement, rebuilt it when it collapsed and came out the other side more grounded and more himself. Wes, welcome to Messy Midlife.

Wes Towers 0:48

Thanks, Jody. It's fantastic to be with you. Great to connect from the other side of the planet. I always enjoy speaking to different people and yeah, pleasure to be here.

Jody Brooks 0:56

It's funny how the podcasting world goes in fits and starts. I feel like for some reason I've the podcast has got popular in Australia because I've seem to have a lot of Australian guests at the moment, which is great. And that's the wonder of this whole thing, and that ability for us to connect globally rather than in our little bubbles.

Wes Towers 1:17

Yeah, and we all experience similar challenges, don't we? And talking about midlife. I think there's common traits and things that we all go through no matter where we are in the world.

Jody Brooks 1:27

I think definitely during this podcast, I have learned that it is global. And I think it's that great thing that reminds us that we are a global species. We may live in these communities and colonies, but essentially as a species, we suffer those very similar things in that midlife moment, which is often

The Desk Breakdown

Jody Brooks 1:49

messy. Which obviously brings me to my first question. As always, Wez, what was your messy midlife moment?

Wes Towers 1:58

Wow, so it was pretty traumatic. Pretty bad big scenario. So I found myself probably four years ago. I'm 47 right now, so it was about four years ago. I was in a really bad state for a whole host of reasons for personal life, and that kicks on into business life as well. So I found myself crying like a baby under the desk, and I realized I needed to get up for a really important client meeting, a potential client meeting. It was the biggest contract we were ever going for, and I had to present. So from one minute crying under the desk, almost convulsing, really bad, pulled myself together, did that sales meeting and closed the deal. And I realized at that point in time, hey, I had the capacity to put things aside and compartmentalize, which was helpful in the moment, but not helpful for the long-term long-term success. So it was a really confronting season in life, and I really had to dig deep and get some support and so on and figure out who I really was for whatever it was. No, whatever, yeah, for early 40s, and really needed to discover myself.

Jody Brooks 3:00

I wholeheartedly empathise with that story. Interestingly, we're recording this today. Today is the day that the first episode of the show is being released. But this episode is now going to be much further down the line. But in the episode that's released today is the story about my messy moment, which was a lot of tears and hysteria and snot running down my face. It's all in the episode. If you've not listened to it, go back and listen to the episode where I did it in a toilet cubicle. Same thing, came out of a meeting, and just is hit by this feeling of emptiness all of a sudden of I literally had nothing left. Like you say, you were under the desk

Identity Under Pressure

Jody Brooks 3:46

sniveling. Just for the listeners out there, like how did it feel physically in that moment or what led up to it? That kind of the feelings that led to that, I can't do this.

Wes Towers 3:57

Yeah, well, a whole host of reasons. So I'd found out a few things that really challenging as a family man and someone who loves my children. There was a lot of things going on, let's put it that way. And it was just a real time where I I had to figure out how I move forward and life was going to look different to a large degree. And what does that mean? And what have I built? And a lot of things had to happen. I got a business valuation not long after that, too. And that was confronting in itself simply because AI was the value said your whole industry is vulnerable and people buy don't buy uncertainty. And therefore, the valuation of a business was not what it could have been. If I had valued it a few years earlier, it would have been significantly greater than it was the new age. So not only did I need to figure it myself out personally, but I needed to figure out how do I because I think it's a trait often for men, and certainly for me, a lot of my identity was built around myself as a business, running a business and career. I think that's common for a lot of men, certainly for the people that I hang out with. That seems to be something that we really build our lives upon. But what happens if that's disrupted? What happens if you what you've created, if you are in business, what happens if that's removed from you? Things don't always work out. What are you going to be left behind? Who are you if that was removed? Some of these big questions I had to work through. I got a really great psychologist soon after. She was brilliant, so progressive, and really understood me right away. So I'm really pleased that I got her. I know not every psychologist i it has the same way of thinking, and I I was really fortunate to find her.

Jody Brooks 5:34

I think you say there, and it was interesting before you talked about, and I know in the intro about identity, and you say it there as well. Was these like external bits of identity, they all shifted, and so in those shifting left you stood there questioning everything?

Wes Towers 5:58

Yeah, everything

Faith Deconstruction

Wes Towers 5:59

was challenged. And so I grew up with a religious background as well. There were so many aspects, so many, so much of us that we think is us has been placed there by other people. And we just think it's our thoughts and think it's our ideas and what we believe. But is it really? Is it just because of the way we were brought up? And and do we really need to keep to those beliefs and and systems? And so the church I grew up in was really controlling and most people would define it as a cult. And so really unhelpful. I left there when I was when I went to university, which was great, but I found myself in other churches, and I suppose they were similar, not as dangerous, I suppose you would say, but it was kind of like I was trying to fill a gap that my life was built to a degree in this religious context. But a lot of those beliefs, I certainly don't hold to them anymore, but I think there's value in in mythology, there's things that we can all learn. But even to the point, I remember just being really feeling really conflicted. A wonderful mentor of mine here in Australia. I did a lot of work with him. He ran networking events and different masterminds and all sorts of courses. And he became a really great mentor. I learned so much from him, but he was a gay man. I had that conflict in that the church point of view was that was not the way you should live. And this guy was wonderful. And so it was something I just put to the side and didn't want to deal with it. I really deep down knew there was nothing wrong with this fella and the way he wanted to live. And he was really um active in the yes campaign and all of that stuff that we had here in Australia for the capacity for him and others to be married. And I just tried to ignore it. But deep down I knew, hey, this is not what I believe, this is not who I am. And all of these things, once I got through this midlife crisis and I could get to a point where I dissolved, I broke down, but it was for the best because I could rebuild in a way in which was more truly, authentically who I was and what I believe. I don't believe any of that stuff. I think there's I still value Bible stories, but I certainly don't think someone lived in the belly of a whale. But I think there's metaphor in that. Sometimes we feel like we're swallowed up by problems and challenges, those sorts of things. So I get great value in the learnings that I got from some of these stories, but I don't hold that they're true. I don't know that all the animals lived on one boat for an extended period of time, and that's how civilization got through. These things are helpful in the context, but they were written a couple of thousand years ago, and it was a very different world back then, too. So it was a massive shakeup. I think anyone who's got a religious background to break that down and to think through what does it truly mean in the context of back then and where were they at, and where are we at right now, and how does it apply the learnings, not necessarily the literal learnings, but the metaphoric learnings. I think there's help helpful things in there.

Jody Brooks 8:54

I think that's as someone who is a practicing Christian, and I always love the phrase practicing because we are all practicing, nobody's perfect. And I say that there's a huge difference between being Christian and doing Christian. And there are a lot of people. That's a great way to put it. There are a lot of people busy doing religion, not being religion. And I love what you say there, because it's a huge part of when people ask me about as a gay man who's married. People often think that I like, how have you done that, resolved that conflict? Because for me it was never a conflict, because I don't read a 2,000-year-old story literally, I read it with context and understanding that there is value in that, in the morals, in some of the bits that we can all learn from. And I truly believe it is the greatest story ever told when you go back and you look at it, because do you know what? 2,000 years later, those stories are still as real if you look for the real message in it. And when it comes to people who feel that they can use religion to judge someone else, I remind them of the phrase, let he who is free from sin cast the first stone. None of us have the right to pass that judgment. You crack on and you be a Christian and stop trying to make me do Christian. That's all I have to say on that one.

Wes Towers 10:26

Yes, no, I would love to dig deeper into that, but then I'd be interviewing him. But yeah, I'd love to hear your a bit more about that from your perspective. Yeah.

Jody Brooks 10:34

And I think, I mean, I laughed the other day, a friend and we had a conversation the other day. We digress, but this is the show. And someone said to me the other day something about that, and I did say it is always the gospel according to, okay? Because those stories are all written by different individuals, so it even tells you, look, this is according to this person.

Wes Towers 10:57

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's so good too, because there's obviously there's discrepancies in accounts, yeah. And so that makes perfect sense from that because they're different perspectives. If you're looking at from a different angle, you do see something slightly differently. So there's room, but that explains how it comes together. I love that. I love that way of thinking.

Jody Brooks 11:17

Yeah,

Perspective and Rebuild

Jody Brooks 11:18

but I actually anchor it back into the show as I'm sat here. That is a lot of it. Like you say there, and I funny enough, on my run this morning, I was thinking about my journey essentially to releasing the podcast and that moment, like your desk moment, my toilet moment. And thinking about how really it is all about perspectives. And it's that actually sometimes in those moments our perspective is shifted so far that we can maybe no longer stand in it, we have to stand outside it. Yeah, that's what happened in that desk moment is I can't sit under this desk, so I'm gonna have to get out of it.

Wes Towers 11:57

Yeah. I think once you get to a point, certainly for me, I could mask a lot of things so well because I could smile through, I could function really

Friends and Connection

Wes Towers 12:05

well. But I knew it wasn't any long-term strategy for success. So obviously, like I said, I got the psychologist. But one of the other core things that I did was get friends around me. I'd let friendships lapse. You get so busy with life, running the business and family and doing every everything else you've got to do. But I think we neglect genuine friendships. That this substitute, the artificial substitute for real friendships is social media. But that doesn't give you the same level of benefit that you that you really have by actually meeting with your mates. We call them mates here in Australia. I think you call them mates too sometimes. Um Yeah, having proper mates in your world that know roughly where you are in life. And or if they can sense that something's a little off with you, they can pull you up and say, hey, what's going on, buddy? And just to have a sounding board. Usually when you do go through something, some form of crisis, people haven't got answers because sometimes there isn't any really good answers. It's just a matter of working through that season of life and things turn eventually. And but just to know people are there for you, that's massively beneficial.

Jody Brooks 13:13

I think that's a really valid point, and I think we all maybe do that in the show being like it's a call in to connect, but I think a huge part of midlife is about connection, and it's not just connection to ourselves, but it is connection to the world around us. And I think that when those identity shifts happen in the worlds around us, there is a disconnection that forces us, but then we realise that I think sometimes was a part of the disconnection you say there with friendships and those kind of things. Was that linked into this external facade that you're portraying where you're holding it all together and pushing, and yet inside it doesn't really feel like that? So there's almost you mentioned authenticity, and so you don't feel authentic. Do you think that's what causes you to disconnect from the value of those friendships?

Wes Towers 14:06

I think to a large degree, but also probably when you're not really authentically yourself, pe other people will just naturally not connect with you because there's they will intuitively pick up that who are you? Like they don't really know who you are because you haven't shown up authentically. So there's that natural disconnection. So it's probably a couple of key reasons. So you withdraw because you're hiding from yourself, hiding from other people, but also other people can sense something's not quite right, and they're probably a little bit reluctant to build a close relationship with anyone that they're not quite sure, they're just not quite sure what's going on. So I think there's a whole host of reasons why. Certainly, those were some of the key things for me. But getting to the end of myself and that dissolving and breaking down turned out to be really helpful because if I think if I hadn't have got to the real end of it all, that it wasn't really the end of anything, it was just the start of something better. So I would never have got to that start of something better if I hadn't have broken down.

Jody Brooks 15:06

I think it it and again, this is not to the show. I know that I say that all the time is we actually have to break sometimes in order to really there's a beautiful Japanese art repeating myself, but Kinsugi, where all of the pieces of a broken ceramic are kept and treasured and glued back together and made whole again, and they're glued with precious metals, so the cracks become the beautiful parts of it, and the vase becomes this new whole beautiful thing that it could never have been without breaking. And I think midlife very much is like a concealer vase. Yeah, that was my take on it.

Wes Towers 15:44

Yeah, absolutely. I 100% agree with you,

AI and Trust Crisis

Wes Towers 15:47

and it's probably even more important now in this day and age of AI perfection, this artificial everything that's perceived to be perfected. You write something and it's perfected through AI. But it's losing its beauty because it's losing that imperfection, the human craftsman who created the pottery or that the cracks, as you say, to fill that with gold or some precious metal. Those the imperfections are the beauty in life. And as we grow into this AI, it's big part of obviously the business and what we do and the disruption that we have to rework how we do business a fair bit. But yeah, just figuring out how do we connect from a marketing standpoint. You need to create meaningful trust-related connections with people so they know I can trust you and want to do business with you and part way with money because they trust you. All that trust is being eroded simply because we don't trust what we read. We know it might be AI written, we don't trust what we see, the photographs, the videos, the major disruptions for, you know, we've got elections coming up here in Australia, but I know this is happening all around the world. Well, we've had videos that are meant to be some form of pol some politician, and then it's turned out that it wasn't really them. We don't trust anything anymore. So what do you trust? You trust a real live human flaw with their flaws and vulnerabilities and the real connections. So I think this podcast, it's really the right time for it that you've launched this message and this form of a platform, and the slightly longer form as well, so people can really dig into it.

Jody Brooks 17:18

I love it because my guests always just there, it is organic. I obviously prep, but I just go with the flow, and we always reach a point where I can tell, and now we're into the not so messy stuff, and we're clearly heading there. I just want to ask one more question about the messy before we wrap up the first half of the show. Which of the identity shifts do you think was the biggest and caused the greatest impact? So business, relationships, family, friendships, and which, if any of them, actually did you almost leave behind and completely change beyond recognition?

Wes Towers 18:04

Yeah, and that's a really interesting question. Yeah. I think holding things loosely, I suppose, where uh I think I was quite rigid in what my belief system. I think I was quite rigid previously, but I think that was because I wasn't quite sure of those things. So sometimes you fight for things not because you think them to be true, but because you're not really quite sure. So you're fighting in your own mind. But when you're more solid and secure, you hold things more loosely and you're more prepared to listen to other people's points of view and perspective and learn and to adapt. There's core values and principles that that I hold and they'll never change, but the peripheral stuff, I'm just so more open these days. I suppose that's the way to think about it. I'm probably a far more open person than I was pre previously.

Men Speaking Up

Jody Brooks 18:56

I'm gonna cheat now and ask another one because there was something that you said earlier on in the conversation, and I was thinking about it then as I'm listening to you now being so vulnerable and talking openly. And I think I'm probably guilty of it being a male, and then when I have a male on the show, I don't think I pay it enough due. And it's one of my things that I want to point out. You touched on it earlier on and said when you're a male, and it genuinely there is elements where it's harder to speak up, like you say, because certainly culturally be a man about it, manner, like it's all about those things. And obviously, we're now having this very open conversation about how messy midlife can be. I know I felt very isolated in mine, and this podcast again is about breaking that silence for men and women because I believe that it isn't talked about in the sense that we're going through it. The only bit we ever hear is midlife crisis. But the reality is that's such a small percentage, really, but lots of us are all in a toilet cubicle under a desk having our quiet midlife unveiling, as I call it, not crisis, but in that moment. How much of you know that of that for you was this being able to speak out as a male made it harder? And what would you now say to men listening who feel that they're heading in that direction?

Wes Towers 20:25

Yeah, I think it's really important to to speak up when you're really struggling. And I know it's a global thing, it's certainly here in Australia where suicide particularly, and you mentioned men, it's easily more predominant in men, and that's probably because that capability of speaking up when things are bad is difficult. So the isolation is probably what happens there. So I think even when you can't really I think part of the problem is we a lot of us don't really have a good sense of of self and and then we find it hard to articulate precisely how we feel. But I think it's not even important to be able to articulate exactly how you feel, but that the important part is to reach out as you are in your messy state. Things are not clear when you get all foggy and you can't really describe if you're in a really bad state, you can't describe that to somebody. And there might be no rational reason. There might be nothing that you can put your finger on to say, hey, this is why my life sucks right now. And so therefore you say nothing. But I think that's part of it. I think women have a natural and I know I'm generalizing, but for the most part, women are probably more emotionally attuned to themselves, and so they don't have that such high level of suicide and all that sort of kind of stuff. So I think speak out in even if you can't describe exactly what it is, just reach out to see see who who who will listen.

Jody Brooks 21:49

I think that's such a important message, and I've said it so many times. I think a lot of the reason it's hard to speak up is because of the guilt and the shame of. Feeling like that you're not coping, but the irony is that silence is actually feeds that guilt and shame. The moment you break the silence, the guilt and shame starts to disappear. Because all the time you're silent on it, it is like a tank filling and filling. It in the UK here, it is still the largest killer of men under 50. And as a statistic, that's a silent statistic that everybody is. And to anybody listening, if you are struggling, if you are really feeling that you know what, it's that bad, and that you've had any thoughts of suicide or just not wanting to be here, if hope has disappeared completely out of your life and you really are finding it that hard, I urge you speak out. There are helplines everywhere that you can ring. I know they are in Australia, there are helplines here in the UK and across the globe. But just go and talk to someone and tell them how you feel, and you don't have to have the words other than I just don't feel okay, and I feel really bad, and I need you to just listen. And I promise you, as somebody who has been there, that the moment you break that silence, it does get easier. I feel like we are now comfortably at the end of the first half of the show. I think what really stands out for me there in your messy midlife moment is obviously the desk. I empathize fully with that. But how much of this was about external identity, about how as the identity outside of you shifted, it removed your anchor point, your foundation, and left you questioning everything right the way down to a belief structure that had accompanied you all the way through life but felt like it didn't fit. And obviously, religion and spirituality and faith are something that runs to the very core of people. And so that when those things are questioned, it does become about perspective and it's about whether you sit in it or stand outside of it and look at it slightly differently and take that as an opportunity to create something amazing. We are gonna take a quick break, listeners, while you listen to this advert and we catch our breath. We'll join you afterwards with the what Wes has done now since that pivotal moment. Before we get back to the conversation, I want to tell you about the wider messy midlife space. Every episode has its own home at messymidlifepodcast.world where you'll find the full show notes, practical takeaways, guest bios, and links to anything we've talked about today. You'll also find a link to the Messy Midlife community, a supportive space where you can connect with me, connect with others who get it, and access free tools to help you explore the nine principles of authentic living in your own life. And if you feel ready for more personal support, visit authenticcoaching.me to find out about one-to-one coaching and book a free 45-minute call with me. This show is brought to you completely free. The only thing I ask is that if it's helping you, please subscribe in your chosen podcast app so you never miss an episode. Leave a review, like this episode, and most importantly of all, share it with a friend or loved one who might need to hear it. Because midlife might be messy, but it does not have to be a crisis. It can be a calling to connect. Now let's get back to today's show.

After the Break Reset

Jody Brooks 25:45

Welcome back, messy midlifer. So before the break, we heard about Wes's journey through that messy midlife that really questioned everything about his identity and his core beliefs. But how in that moment he had a pivotal realization of I can't do this, and so I have to change. And I know that life now is very different to the desk moment, having chatted with Wes before. So, Wes, tell us what happened next and how those realizations catapulted you on a different trajectory.

New Habits and Health

Wes Towers 26:23

Yeah, so some of these I I just built into my life a few little principles to help regulate myself. Life is it can be challenging. You have ups and downs, and certainly running a business that feels like everything's just elevated, the stakes are higher. It feels and the risk and rewards. So a lot of these things I I learned from the psychologist. And so just doing basic things like breath work being wonderful for me. Cold plunges, which is great. I've always got the cold plunger. It's our cold season right now. So it's already cold enough. And then to get into the cold bath. But it's amazing the effects it has. It's been proven to have positive mental health benefits and physiological benefits as well. Um so just getting into my life, some of these key things, going to the gym, massively important for me now to get to the gym most days. And sometimes life doesn't allow for it, but I get there as as often as I can. And just looking after your health, I think, as you age, as a young person, you can get away with so much. You can stay up late, you can be out all night and be fine in the morning, and you push the boundaries of what a human should do. But as you age, it catches up with you. You can't get away with eating horrible food. Your your health is I blew out really quite a to a large weight at one point there. Getting all that back on track really became important as we age, when you hit midlife, you really got to start thinking about your long-term health because you can't get away with the things you once did.

Jody Brooks 27:53

Yeah, I mean, I lost, I was have to do it in old money as we call it in the UK, but I lost six stone in weight. So I'm trying to work that out now, 60, 80 pounds, something like that. And um, I reverse type 2 diabetes. And this morning I've been for a run, I do some form of exercise every day, and I do it because I love it and it's who I

Grieving Old Seasons

Jody Brooks 28:19

am now. And if I think back to those younger days, as you were saying it then, I had this moment of realisation, as I often do in the show, where I was thinking, I wouldn't want to do those things anymore. But there was a point where I felt like I was grieving them in losing that identity. Like, why can I not do this anymore? Why can I not? And now I'm just like, I can't think of anything worse. I loved them, but I do not want to stay up till six o'clock in the morning.

Wes Towers 28:47

Yeah, I've got my my partner said the other day, that song came on, give me a man after midnight, and she said, Oh, give me a man after 8 p.m. But yeah, I'm the same, not staying after midnight. Yeah, but we're both in bed pretty early these days. Your perspective and things change a lot, and and that's part of maturity as well. You live that part of your life, there's different seasons of life. But I think you touched on, I can't remember exactly what you said, but there was something you said, whenever you're transitioning, there is almost a grieving of the thing you're moving away from. And the way I like to think about it, it's almost like whenever you've moved home and you're moving to a nicer home in a better location, and it's beautiful and it's wonderful, but you've packed up your old home and you go through that home that very last time, every all of your belongings are gone, but you packed it up, but there's almost that little sense of grieving that old season of your life

Grief In Transitions

Wes Towers 29:42

is gone. You're looking forward to the exciting new thing, but there's still that little aspect of grief from that the things that are no longer, um, even though it's a positive. So you can't, I think so often in life more than one thing is true. So there's still that the happiness and excitement of what's to come and that great decision you've made to move. I'm just talking, it's metaphoric, but to move physically from one home to the other. That's how things are in life when you make a decision to move from one thing to the next, there's still that pull back to the old because there's so many memories but built around it, but that's okay. It's just part of the normal transition. That's how I find it anyway. Whenever I've made a decision to change something up, there's still that pull and almost grief of what's not going to be there anymore.

Identity Loss Explained

Jody Brooks 30:26

I think it's very true, and it is, I say it an awful lot when I work with clients, is that it is grief. Grief is, we get very confused, I think, about grief, but in its purest form, ironically, we don't ever actually grieve anything. So we don't grieve a person or any of those things. What we grieve is the loss of what that was to us, and the loss of what that was to our identity. And it's the same when we grieve loved ones. Essentially, if you think about it, we're not really grieving them as a person, we're grieving what we no longer have. And it in that sense, that is grief. Obviously, it's really extreme, and there are different levels, and when you're grieving somebody you love, that's a huge thing, but the feelings are very similar in all those things, like that shift of identity, those bits. They're because they're all bits of who we thought we were that no longer exist, and so there's a space there, and that void is essentially a sense of grief. So I'm interested, like, what was the first in that? Like now you rebuilding that identity and regaining that confidence. How does that now inform that shift in how you now work with other people?

Self Work Fuels Business

Wes Towers 31:46

Just showing up, putting aside work and focusing on my healthy and all of these things. The curious thing was business started to flourish to a higher level than it ever had before, which is bizarre. So I thought previously I was just investing so much of me into the business to make it, you know, our success and all of those things that we chase as young men, potentially. But I I moved away from doing any of that and I got a better outcome in in the uh in the outcome anyway. It was a curious thing. So I suppose when you work on yourself, you show up at a your energy is better, other people want to engage with you more frequently because there's something about you that they that that resonates with them and they want to do business with you, you're showing up in a happy and more authentic way, in a natural way. So people know, start to trust you a whole lot more. I think so much of business is built on trust these days. And so when you're showing up, you know, in a positive way, people trust you and start to like you and want to do business with you. And you put them first, you think about what their needs are and you know, find a need. If you can f if anyone's in business, you the way to create wealth in any business is you've got to find a need and provide value to that need, and the higher of that level of value the income follows that. Income is just a product of the value in which you produce in the world. It's a crude income is a crude proxy to for value. So the more value you can create, the better. And so to do that, you want to think about other people. So get yourself right, get yourself healthy, show up for other people, and think about how you can improve their scenario. Uh, I think that's what's really shifted in my world.

Authenticity Creates Value

Jody Brooks 33:23

You mentioned authenticity a few times, and I think that's really true, is what value do you bring? And we I think again, it those identities, we're so often so far outside ourselves on all this external stuff that we've missed that point. That actually the real answer is how am I showing up and what am I bringing? And not what am I being asked to bring, but what am I bringing? And that there is in that authenticity, that importance. I had a business for 16 years. I was a salon owner, and I I smiled as you said that then because my team were drilled on the fact that our product is not money. The only business in the world, the only in the UK, the only people, the only business that actually makes money for a living is the Bank of England. Everybody else, money is just a byproduct of what you do. And so focus on what you do because if you add value to what you do, then the byproduct will take care of itself. But if you're gonna focus on the byproduct, you're gonna limit yourself and you're also gonna damage your product, like you're gonna damage it hugely because your eye's not on the right part.

Connection And Care

Wes Towers 34:41

Yeah, all those years of working in a salon maybe made you what you are today, a great host for podcasts. Any salon I've ever been to, get getting my hair done. Obviously, you always have a conversation. They're the best conversationalists, they're like a little counsellor or something, they they know everything about your life, and the best ones they remember roughly what you spoke about the time prior. That's a brilliant, that's a brilliant art because they're talking to people every day. Yeah, it's so true. You'll want to relate to people. Yeah.

Jody Brooks 35:10

I think I was destined to end up as a coach really, but on that journey, but it it's so true. And when I think back to when I started my apprenticeship, I was very lucky and blessed because I had a very clever boss who told me all the things that you wouldn't necessarily get told. And it was things like that. You don't need to remember their haircut because they'll tell you, but you need to remember where they went on holiday, like what they have in their do they have sugar in their tea, and like what car do they drive? All of those things. And when you remember those things, okay, that will fill your chair with people because they will know that you care. And I've carried that with me my entire life in that whole thing, Myra Angelou, people will forget what you said, they will forget what you did, but they will never, ever forget how you made them feel. And I think it is so true. And so those moments of opportunity where we get to connect and change how someone feels are very precious moments.

Wes Towers 36:20

Yeah, my dad was a brilliant, he was just naturally brilliant at that kind of stuff. He worked in shops, managed shops and so on, but he was just a wonderful conversationalist. So it made him a great salesperson. He wasn't doing any sales, traditional sales techniques or strategies. He was just loving people and listening to their stories and asking questions. And everybody loved him, you know. It was remarkable. He just did that naturally. But I think I learned a lot of those skills having watched how he dealt with people. He just made them feel loved. And some of the things that I picked up that he would do, he would often ask about how their kids were. In hindsight, I realized why that was so powerful in that the some of the most the most precious things in most people's lives are their children. So if you remember their kids' names or what they're up to at school and they're maybe they're in school sports or whatever they're doing, if you remember that, you've remembered the most important thing in their world. That's a pretty powerful connection you're gonna

AI Versus Authenticity

Wes Towers 37:17

make.

Jody Brooks 37:18

It's so true, this whole piece on connection. And I know you mentioned in the first half of the show how AI had been a huge disruptor for you, but then has gone on to just make you pivot and change, and now your work is around that. I always talk about there being two types of AI, and there's artificial intelligence and there's authentic intelligence. I am a huge lover of both. However, I feel that if you are scared of the artificial intelligence, you need to upskill your authentic intelligence. And I can't help but feel that there's a bit in the conversation where you've been alluding to that, in the actually, I'm a huge believer that everything is a balance in life. And if it's tipped and we start to get to a point where it's all artificial, then actually eventually all that happens is this one has to come back up, you know, like once I say to people, it will even itself out, but it's in our hands. How do you now obviously in your world a business that was you said there, your business kind of got devalued almost in no time at all because of the emergence of this super fast new intelligence? I think it's amazing that you've pivoted to a point, but tell me a little bit about that and how you now work in

Pivoting With Your Team

Jody Brooks 38:48

that arena.

Wes Towers 38:48

Yeah, it was the very first time that it made me more human. So that's a curious thing, and and relate to people a whole lot more. So previously, all the standard operating procedures, everything, the way we did our work, we I have a digital agency, so we do websites and search engine optimization, all that techie stuff. But everything had been built around how I thought it should be done because it started out, the business started out as me, and then aspects of me got delegated to people, and we built systems and so on, and it was working beautifully. But this I realized was a massive game changer, and not one person had all the answers, and I certainly didn't have all the answers. So it's the very first time I called upon my team members and say, hey, what are you seeing? What are you thinking? What could we change? What could we make better? And because they're all geeking out, just like me, watching what's going on and what the technology is, and they really enjoyed the opportunity to speak into what we're doing. And so all of a sudden, I was getting better insights because other people were having a say. I should have done that a whole lot earlier upon reflection. I should have invited them into the conversation at a greater level. Yeah, building, rebuilding the systems and processes and getting things. So we're doing the same outcomes, we're just doing them a whole lot more efficiently and effectively. It's far more far faster. And that's freed me up to go out and do what I love, which is get in front of people, speak to people, get to networking groups. I love to do that, different functions, events, but also Zoom calls and whatnot. That's the other things I enjoy. So the curious thing is AI has freed me up to do that a whole lot more. So putting things in the right context, the way I like to think about it, artificial intelligence, I like to relate it to artificial food. You know, it's it might fill our bellies and give us some substance, but it's not the authentic. So we you can't live on artificial alone. But artificial also might mean supplements. So it can be healthy in the right context. You might need your vitamin C, or you might you're in summer right now, and you we were talking about it before the show that you're getting plenty of sunshine. Other people in your environment might not be getting enough sunshine. They might need a supplement of vitamin D, those sorts of things. So that and that's an artificial thing, but it's a helpful thing. So you've got to get these things in balance in your life and figure out how you're gonna use them to advantage without losing yourself. So don't rely upon the tool to become your voice. And that's the major risk in our world because we do marketing. People just jump on an AI tool and write blog posts and they don't even they don't even read it before they publish it under their own name. And that's horrific, in my view. It's got to be your message and your voice and your authentic position and your values and your convictions and bring something new to the table. Because if you're relying on AI, all it's doing is bling in every other thought that everyone else has already said, collate it into something perceived to be new, but it's not really new. It's just a new collation of everyone's out else's ideas. You want it to be your ideas and to be using AI to syndicate that message far and wide so you can be heard by more people.

Jody Brooks 41:49

I

Using AI As Assistant

Jody Brooks 41:50

love that. Like I say, I'm a huge fan of AI and certainly couldn't have built a coaching practice without it. I could, but not at the speed that I've been able to, and not to do some of the things that I've been able to do. Even the podcast, in all fairness, I could never have done this podcast without AI. But it is that the thing you say there about freeing up time. It's like I have a whole team of office assistants that do all the stuff I don't want to do. They go to find me the information. But I think that's the important bit that you say there is you yeah, I get it to do the legwork, and then I do the important bit. Yeah, I'll get it too. I'll say, look, I want to write a blog about this, go back through my podcasts, I'll give it all the files. I think there's an important part as well about picking an AI, working with it, and it becoming your AI and not just throwing it out there in the ether. I don't know what you would say about that, but I'm very specific. I use one AI that I have, that's it. It has all my work, everything, and I have trained it to work how I want it to work, where I want it to look, what I want it to do. But yeah, that final bit is always me. And I love it because I always give it back my final piece of work, and it usually tells me, yes, this is much better.

Wes Towers 43:14

Yeah, it's a refining what you what you're wanting to say. I the way I do a lot of because I'll have creative ideas just when I'm out and about doing things, and it might be in the car because you're just sitting still for with your sitting still with your own thoughts while you're driving around. And so I'll often have ideas that I won't just want to capture at that moment because if I don't, they're lost. And Chat GPT is great to talk to it. You can have hands-free on your car and start speaking out some of your thoughts and ideas, and they're messy thoughts and ideas, but that's okay. You're just trying to capture it. But you'll have you'll converse with Chat GPT and it'll help you distill it down into something more articulate and more practical that other people might um appreciate. It's such a it's such a helpful tool when you think about it that way. And then it's only your ideas because you've put it. You've had their conversation and it's helped put some structure around it that makes it more meaningful to others.

Jody Brooks 44:06

I think that comp I have I use two. I've got perplexity and I also use letterly. There is no affiliation link, but they're the two that I use. And I love them both for exactly what you said there is quite often I'll be in the car or I'll be running or I'll be doing something. And I can just hit it on my watch and speak that out loud. And then, like you say, what it will do is it'll go fine from my show notes and everything. It'll actually say, in fact, you said this in this show and this show, so now let's draw all of that together. And I haven't had to sit there for five hours going, when did I say it is, and I think when you use it like that, but that's using it with authentic intelligence. That is using it like the two of them working in harmony. I think it's interesting.

Gen X And Tech Shifts

Jody Brooks 44:55

We're not we're not that far apart. I'm a little ahead of you in age, but we're not that far apart. We are both Gen Xs. Do you think I want to ask this question? Do you think that we are in a slightly different position as Gen X as to how we are all navigating this AI shift and the kind of the transition that we're seeing?

Wes Towers 45:21

Yeah, I wonder how we to think about that. It's it is interesting, I suppose. Well, I I haven't got the research or anything like this, but the my sense is Gen X are people like us, we're hardworking, authentic, down-to-earth, pragmatic kind of people. So we'll probably perceive the world in slightly different ways to certainly the younger generation who maybe have grown up a little bit more digitally, digital native, I suppose you would say. There's probably more relaxed reluctance in our generation to to apply some of the things. All of us, no matter what generation we are, there's a tendency to avoid what we don't understand just because it's overwhelming. That's probably true for everybody to a degree. Yeah, I'd be interested. What are your thoughts on that?

Jody Brooks 46:05

I think that because we've grown up with our foot in two camps, we are able to adapt. But I think that we're able to adapt with authentic intelligence because we still question. We still essentially maybe come from fear to start with, but then think we have to adapt. There's no choice. I didn't have a mobile phone till I was 26. A computer game when I was a kid. It was something you held in your hand and it had two buttons, and some little donkey-like thing ran across a screen. That's it. We had a thing that you plugged into the aerial socket of the TV, and two bats went up and down either side, and a white dot bounced across, and we thought it was the most revolutionary thing ever. And we the teacher wheeled a TV and a video into the classroom. We had a breakdown and the excitement of that. And as someone who's also taught in schools now, and there's a bit where you feel like you're in a a crime DSI movie where you're like, these days you're teaching on an interactive whiteboard that drags things across and does all of this. And I'm like, I was like, oh my god, we were excited by a TV and a video when I was a child.

Wes Towers 47:16

Yeah, it's the we say we adapt to the level in which the technology, the tools allow us to. That's true in every era when any tech technological or you know tool advancement humans have just adapted to that tool to a degree. You mentioned mobile phones. Before mobile phones, you have to be so organized. If you're gonna meet somebody for a coffee, let's say, or meet them in the city, you have to know precisely what time and where because you're not gonna you're not gonna find them and call them on the fly, are you? You're not gonna just give them, you're not gonna say, I'll meet you at the footy, and that's that. You're gonna say, we're gonna be in row B, seats of five or at 5 15, we'll see you at this gate or whatever it is now. It's we'll just show up roughly and figure it out as we go. So it's yeah, it's interesting.

Jody Brooks 48:04

And I think again, it's a perspective thing, isn't it? That there are so many things that we gain, but there are different bits there. And so it leads me to my other question now. Interestingly, is that obviously you have a business around IT and the techie stuff. And I'm interested, I suppose, then to say how does those younger generations, their approach to IT, how is it fundamentally different to ours? I suppose that's the thing is that sometimes I wonder, and I'm supposed I'm looking to be corrected, I wonder whether there's more of an acceptance and less of a questioning. And is that a concern?

Wes Towers 48:44

Yeah, probably. It's a concern that the capability in which we can influence

Marketing In AI Era

Wes Towers 48:49

it. That's an interesting way to think about it. The from a marketing, because a lot a lot of our work is marketing, and so we can't change the way people interact with the with messaging, for example. All we know is people don't spend as much time to read your whole web page as they once did before they make a decision. Attention spans are rapidly diminishing simply because there's an abundance of information. And in the world where there's abundance of information, there's not necessarily they don't need to read your whole web page anymore because they know there's a hundred others out there, and they don't even need to read it at all because they can get the succinct answer to what they want, jumping on the preferred AI platform. So the way in which information flows in our world is dramatically different. And it's a curious thing. So we need an abundance of information in the websites that we produce for clients. So this is a curious thing. Lots and lots of resource because we're dealing with large language models. They want large language, lots of words, lots of information and insights. But people don't read lots of words and insights, they just read the bit that they want. So you fuel the AI with lots of information, knowing that they're only going to get the snippet that they need on the other side. So it's just a different way of thinking about it. And I think the younger people are more that's more pronounced in them. They're less likely to read your web page. They're just gonna read the bit that they're interested in and move on. And probably social media is a big aspect of that, TikTok and so on. You know, people only stick on a reel for a few seconds before they move on to the next. If it's not engaging, if it's not super engaging, they know there's a million others in their in their feed. And that's just hard to get attention these days. And that's what people need it when they're running businesses. They're trying to get attention so people can learn about their brand and do some business.

Jody Brooks 50:36

Uh, just with that, it as you said it, the whole scrolling thing has almost now killed itself. It's like it's consumed itself, it's got so big it's consumed itself, and it's mad then listening to you there saying, actually, you need to pack your website full of information because no one's gonna read it. Because what's reading it is AI and that likes lots of information. So you've now got to build your website, in fact, for artificial intelligence, so that eventually the authentic intelligence gets the message that you were aiming to put out there.

Wes Towers 51:14

Yeah. It's a bizarre way of looking at it, isn't it? So for a website, for example, you'll have your core short, concise, compelling messaging on the priority areas of your website, but digging deeper in, that's where you'll have the sub the more substantial, meaty content. So getting that balance right is the secret to getting it to work right now. There'll be those who are really keen on the cons just the concise stuff, and there's others who are more wired for lots of substance, but really, realistically, you need both working together. But where you package that information is the key.

Jody Brooks 51:47

We are rapidly running out of time. I got completely lost in our conversation and just looked at my watch and was like, wow, is there anything before I ask my final question? Is there anything in that second section that we haven't covered that you really want to draw out to the listener's attention?

Purpose Through Disruption

Wes Towers 52:09

What I would say, yeah, probably just the one thing is to for anyone, no matter what they're doing, and you might be going through a transitional time, or you might be career your career might be disrupted due to AI, or whatever the case is, there might be some form of transition or disruption. Get really clear on your purpose, what you want to achieve as the final outcome. You might not know the exact precise steps and mechanisms to get to where you want to, but if you're at least clear on what you want life to look like, then the steps that you need to take will will take care of the take care of themselves as you make progress toward that thing. You won't know the exact steps, and there'll be detours and so on, and life is messy, that's how it works. But you've got to have at least some form of purpose that you're working towards. Otherwise, where do you go? You'll just be lost and at sea.

Jody Brooks 53:01

Um that's so true for this. I think both business and life, both of those. So, my final question, the same as it is to every single guest that I have on the show. If you could plant a seed in the mind of our listeners today that would slowly grow over time and bear fruit, what would that seed be, Wes?

Write Your Next Chapter

Wes Towers 53:22

Yeah, I think if we were to think about life as being chapters, because there are different seasons in life and chapters in life that we work through and different according to the stage that you're at. But even if today's chapter is tough, today's chapter is not your final chapter. It doesn't need to be, at least, anyway. So you get to write the new chapter that you're moving in toward. And what does that look like? And what are the key elements you want in that next chapter? You know, this tough season you're living through what right now will pass, but there's a new, there's something new on the horizon, and you've just got to grasp it and figure out what you want your life to look like and write that chapter.

Jody Brooks 54:00

Amazing.

Closing And Takeaways

Jody Brooks 54:01

I am sure there are people who would like to reach out and connect with you and ask you more questions, be that about SEO and the IT bit and the authentic intelligence, or even about that messy moment. How can people reach out and connect with you, Wes?

Wes Towers 54:18

Yeah, the business is Uplift360.com.eu is the website. And I realize it wasn't really the intention for this show, it was just to share my heart and some ideas. But if they do jump on there, they can obviously talk to me about websites and you can book a call with me. But even as you say, like it it might not be anything about business as such. Maybe something I've said has resonated with you, or even if it's something around that mental health aspect that you're looking for someone to talk to. I'm not, it's not my area, but I'm always I'm an open door, so reach out. I'm happy to chat to you about anything that we might have touched on today that you might felt drawn and connected to.

Jody Brooks 54:53

Amazing. Thank you so much. I now have to sum up what has been an incredible show, and we have covered many multitude of topics, certainly from the messy. I think what really stands out for me in today's episode is that element of external identity shifts that almost cause a reckoning in our lives, a point that we can't avoid, a point where that shift has to happen. And that in that identity there is a form of grief, but there is this moment where when you step outside of it and change perspective, many things shift. That journey can often involve rebuilding who we are really at our core, everything from our very, very core beliefs. But when you do that, like Wes has discussed, you get to live a life on your terms authentically. And you know, that projecting then into that element of where his business was essentially feeling threatened by artificial intelligence by connecting to his authentic intelligence. Not only did he pivot that business, but continues to make it successful. Based around this one important thing which I think resonates all the way through today's episode, is that really it is about connection, real human connection. Until next time, Messy Midlifers, remember you're not broken, you're becoming. I'll see you on the next episode. Thank you for spending this time with me on Messy Midlife. If this episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who might need to hear it today. You can find the show notes below and more resources at reflexcoaching. If you have concerns about your physical or mental health, qualified professional health. Well, it's not a crisis, it's a call.