Eric’s Big Identity Shifts

Jody Brooks 0:00

My guest today spent 12 years in Christian ministry, including pastoring a Baptist church before serving 24 years as an FBI agent. Eric Robertson investigated everything from counter-terrorism and public corruption to crimes against children. But some of his hardest questions were waiting at home. When his children came out as transgender, Eric had to examine the difference between inherited belief, personal belief, and the lived reality of people he loved. Now retired and entering another new chapter, he joins me to talk about identity, certainty, and the honesty it takes to admit that something you once trusted may no longer be true. If you've ever wondered whether changing your mind means betraying who you were, stay with me and Eric. Eric, thank you for answering the call to connect and welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Thank you so much, Jody. I feel like I am in a new chapter of life, so it's good to talk about that and some of the things in the past, too.

Jody Brooks 0:59

There's obviously been some pivotal moments. Right now is a huge shift that lots of people experience, which is that facing retirement, what do I do now? And I know that we will get to it in the show. What really stuck out for me was the identity shifts, really, and how you've gone from the Baptist ministry and the structure that provides to the FBI. That's a very full-on article world. And then I know that you then had to also come to terms is the right word, but go through the point of having children who came out as transgender, and so there've been all these pivotal shifts, and now retired, and now this great book.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah, and and none of those pivots were expected along the way, too. So having to adapt and and my life changed each time, I think each time for the better, too. Lessons learned, but getting into a more comfortable place in my life, and I think we're similar ages, but when you get on into your 50s, obstacles, hurdles become so much easier to handle because now I have perspective of oh, I've been through things like that before. This is not as daunting as frightening because I've experienced so many things. Yep, let's just tackle this and have a have a new normal.

Ministry Burnout Hits Hard

Jody Brooks 2:29

But what was the pivotal, messy middle moment?

SPEAKER_01 2:34

The first one was as a pastor and working in ministry, finally as a senior pastor, doing things the way I thought they should be, not getting involved in silly politics or ancillary, useless pursuits, but getting down to, hey, we're reaching out to people who don't normally go to church. We're showing grace and acceptance. We're successful because people are coming, their lives are being changed, getting to be a part of here in my late 20s, early 30s, part of something that I thought this is, I'm still so young and I get to do what I think is best in the world. But then struggling with every day not being able to handle the stress of the job. And so when people came to me, normal pastoral role, but saying, hey, I've got these issues I'm going through, I held on to them. I kept them as burdens, and that created stress-related headaches every single day for two years, until I came to a point where I realized I have to either change or at some point my mind or my body is gonna make me change, and I don't want to find out what that's gonna be because it was telling me up to that point, not subtly, you've got to do something

Trading the Pulpit for the FBI

SPEAKER_01 3:52

different.

Jody Brooks 3:52

Smiling to myself about the fact that you in Baptist ministry and it was so stressful it was causing all these physical things, and so the move was the FBI. How did that look like a less stressful job?

SPEAKER_01 4:07

I wasn't thinking clearly at the time. It was but it I think I that that I realized looking back, it I realize it better, but I did realize at the time the stress was in doing that type of work. And obviously there's stress in the FBI and there's frustrations and there's dangers, but none of it ever one time affected me the same way that ministry did in that negative fashion. So it just felt like this was going to be a life ring, and the day that I got accepted into the FBI, headache stopped. So that was a pretty good cue that I had early on, yep, I'd made the right choice in findings different.

Masks, Perfection, and Pressure

Jody Brooks 4:53

What was it really about that element of the Baptist ministry? Because it you would think it would be something filled with hope and positivity, and yet it clearly wasn't. And the almost on opposite ends, you would think I would imagine, and certainly some of the crimes that you dealt with against children, those kind of things, that's hard to find hope in that. Like that's quite interesting.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Yeah, the difference was I was just able to because I knew it was my job in the FBI. Yes, we're seeing victims, there's horrible things happening, but I knew that line ended with, I did my job by bringing a conviction against this criminal. And so I didn't carry on that, oh my gosh, that victim has struggled so much, and I wonder how they're doing now. That just wasn't my position. My my job that I could then be successful at and complete was get a conviction on the person who did this, and then the victim is going to move on, find help otherwise. In the church, my job, and a lot of poor thinking and management here, but my job when you come to me and say, Hey, I think my wife's gonna leave me, is to help you through that, and that doesn't just end after we talk. Now I'm going home, and oh, you know, that's still happening. And there was a lot else involved. I felt like I had to be perfect. I can't enjoy cigars or bourbon, which I do. And so I had to wear a mask, I had to show up, I had to watch what I said, and much of that was self-imposed, but it wasn't self-imposed if there wasn't some sort of kernel of reality there too. So with all of that, it just combined of worrying about other people, worrying about myself, and living a life that didn't seem fully natural. And then in the FBI, all I had to do was be a good FBI agent. And I thought, oh, I can do this. I don't have to have something else about me. Was the structure in it?

Jody Brooks 7:01

Whereas we we all perceive religion as being very structured, but it seems like you found comfort in that structure within the FBI that almost limited not limited, but I suppose it did to a certain way, like you say, it was a very specific role. Do this, I do this, that's my responsibility, and when I've done that, I'm done and I can move on. Did you also you touch there about feeling like you had a mask on? Was there elements in the FBI where you felt you didn't have to wear that mask anymore?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

It I was just doing my work and I did adopt identities within the FBI of as you mentioned, being on SWAT, and so I think, oh, this is great, you know, I get to be part of this. But those were all positive ones. They were positive until I got near the end of my career, and I started having to confront, oh my gosh, I've been that guy, I've been a SWAT operator, I've been an FBI agent, I've been I've been important for 24 years, and then I'm just gonna be somebody. And so that was something to confront then, leading to the end of my career.

Jody Brooks 8:06

Is there an element in that where in Baptist ministry the identity encompasses you 24 hours a day? Whereas it sounds a little bit like in the FBI, they were almost changeable identities. They were you borrowed them for a while and put them on, kind of thing, like they were literally just contained to that that kind of space and time.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

No, because in the FBI, I had my phones on me all the time. I had to be ready to go. Walking in a supermarket, I've got a gun on my hip in case something happened. So there was a lot of being on, but that was fine for me in the Baptist church. It that also was 24 hours a day, but it was adopting into something that wasn't fully and wholly me. And even if it was, there I still had to be. I had a good friend in the church who would he had he took on the role of talking to me after I would give a message and say, Hey, you know, when you told that one joke, I think it was a little over the edge. And I go, okay, thanks. So there were just when you have to always be watching your language, that makes life a little less freeing. So that was what I was living is being careful of what I've I'm seen doing, acting, my attitude, gotta be positive. And I had no one else to then share these things with to say, hey, I'm struggling with this. And that was my fault

Finding Purpose in Investigations

SPEAKER_01 9:34

too.

Jody Brooks 9:34

Years in the FBI is a considerable amount of time. It was despite still being a 24-hour identity, it was obviously an identity that you were much more comfortable with. Was that because it felt more like you than Baptist ministry did?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Well well, I didn't know that it would, but yes, it it did. I enjoyed the mental gymnastics of working investigations. I enjoyed the connections with people. I liked trying to break subjects and interrogations and and plan ways to get them to agree with me. So there were some of the aspects of ministry that I got to carry over of listening to people, helping them, talking to victims. But then also there's the thrill of being on a SWAT team and knowing there's danger there, but every time coming out safe. And you know, it's it's like bungee jumping. It seems dangerous, it could be, but there was an exhilaration to that. So all of those things really appealed. And then there's the aspect of I'm doing something very positive for the community too, so I can feel proud about that.

Faith Inside the Bureau

Jody Brooks 10:48

Diggree, obviously, to be a minister, you faith must have been an incredibly large part of who you are. How much of that did go with you to the FBI and how much of it started to be reshaped or maybe not be as firm as it was before?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

I feel like it was always firm, and the person that I was as a pastor was the same person. I wasn't engaging in the same things. I've had people ask, oh, oh, did you ever have a chance to try to evangelize one of the criminals or squad mates? And I thought that just wasn't the place. But I could be someone who could bring encouragement. I could be someone who, when I went into the FBI Academy, I remember seeing former police officers, military, I'd never handled a gun. I'm skipping rounds off the pavement while they're doing okay. I'm learning about law enforcement for the first time. But once we got in the field, then I had the advantage because I had spent 12 years learning how to interact with people, how to gain their confidence, how to connect with them, how to make myself appear safe. So now I had that leg up of doing things that maybe other people didn't quite have the experience in.

Jody Brooks 12:09

Did you have a chance to evangelize and this? Yeah, I was reading them, I was reading a chapter of the Bible rather than their rights when they're arresting it rather than.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

I did have one occasion where I was asked to carry out the post-arrest interrogation of one pastor who was involved in a sex trafficking ring. And I had it had been a long time since I got a sermon together, but I, you know, I had all the evidence and I'm memorizing this, but I also had Bible verses about confessing your sins, getting right with God, and I had all that ready. And as we sat down, I start going through that, telling him I used to be a pastor, he says, Hey man, I'll talk to you, but let's not bring Jesus into this. And that was such a uh wild indicator, so vivid of that's who he was. Here's the guy who preached about Jesus, and we can bring Jesus into that. Here's a man who has sex with an underage girl. Jesus ain't there. So if we're gonna talk about that, Jesus is not involved in it.

Jody Brooks 13:08

Their lives, particularly when they're at polar opposite.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Well, you and I compartmentalize in that like we see somebody driving fast and like oh you're crazy. And then, but if we do it, there's a reason. Like we compartmentalize in small areas. This is a man who is now serving life in prison for his crimes, so that's such a huge gap.

Jody Brooks 13:31

I'm interested to know. So giving a sermon or sitting on a stakeout, which one made you more nervous?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

The sermons felt very comfortable. I came to a place recognizing, and I used to I'd have like agents or analysts be nervous about speaking in front of public, and I'm like, this is why you should feel comfortable. They are there to hear you. So you have this authority, you have this position, you don't have to convince them that you're worth listening to. And so I really enjoyed preaching. That was fun. Man, stakeouts. It's usually sitting in a car facing this way while you're looking down that street, you know, trying to hide, turning the engine off and it's freezing out because you don't want the exhaust to give you way. And then you sit for four hours and you go from a heart rate of 50 to all of a sudden you're running through the streets dodging vehicles, and your heart rate's up to 120. So yeah, I'll take the sermons.

Retirement and Losing the Badge

Jody Brooks 14:29

When did that first thought of who am I as retirement loomed start to creep in? Yeah, I can tell you exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

So I'm going through years in the FBI, and guys are retiring as I've been on for a while. Like, oh, I liked him. He was a nice guy, and yeah, I remember working with him. And then a few years back, a friend retired, and we had worked closely together, and that's when it struck me like, oh, that's gonna be me in a couple years. And this guy used to be the best shot in our division, and then he just became a guy. And I now I brought that over to myself, and I thought, oh, that's that'll be me. I'm gonna go from someone that has an identity and seems important to who knows what. And I was speaking with another buddy who's near retirement. He said, Yeah, man, I was struggling with that too. And I talked to my therapist, and he said, How much do you identify with being an FBI agent? And he said, Yeah, quite a lot. He goes, Well, that's gonna be a problem. And I said, Buddy, you're not helping me. That's exactly what I'm thinking. And now on the other side, I am missing the guys, missing the action, missing the importance, and yet I underestimated what stress actually was there, how freeing it is to be away from that 24-hour phone getting calls. I was sitting in bed about two weeks after retirement, and on my FBI phone, the alert for a SWAT call out is a clanging sound, really loud, so it'll get your attention. And there's this commercial that had the same sound. And then as I'm, you know, trying to relax, it goes off on TV, and I shot up grabbing for the nightstand, and I thought, oh my gosh, I don't do that anymore. But I felt that same immediate spike of heart rate, and then thoughts of, okay, do I have to go out immediately? Am I gonna have to get my gear?

Jody Brooks 16:35

20 thoughts in two seconds, and then oh, it is um scary how much we do on habit without thinking. As a coach, I work with people, and I think sometimes people think I'm obsessed with the subconscious, but I'm like, it's just insane. You will be surprised. That's obviously an extreme version of it, but I say to people, we're all doing it, we're all on autopilot, whether you realize it or not, there are things that you're doing without even thinking it, and it's only when you've done it you go, Oh, I've just

Missing the Rush, Loving the Calm

Jody Brooks 17:05

done that. I want to know though, when that happened afterwards, was there an element of missing that it wasn't actually really a proper SWAT call?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Absolutely. I when we would have SWAT operations, I would get up at 1:30 in the morning to get my gear, travel across state, do the briefing, get planning. That's horrible. That's it's disgusting. I mean, I'm just feeling sick the rest of the day. And it was also exciting. And I was risking my life and bonding to my SWAT colleagues. So yeah, you miss that. Miss I miss the feeling of the cold air in the morning, the going to the checklist in your head of making sure I've got the equipment needed. I might be the person breaching the door, talking to a buddy about hey, how are we gonna work this? I missed all that, and I also didn't because it was nice to just be able to sleep and rest and not have that stress about me.

Jody Brooks 18:06

Shift, like to go from all that structure as you were reading it off there, that must have been quite a shock. I would imagine, is there like a honeymoon period where it feels like a vacation to start with? Then all of a sudden you realize it's not a vacation and you start to miss those things.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

No, I I I missed it off the bat, but then there the honeymoon period was that transition of recognizing the value in the rest of the calmness that I didn't realize was missing. You know, it's it's like getting your shoes wet, and you think, oh, yeah, it's fine, shoes are wet, and then you later take your wet socks off and go, oh my gosh, that feels so much better. Like you don't realize in it, you can't sense how bad it is. And it wasn't when I say bad, like I just highlight the positives, like, oh my gosh, I'm going to miss and lose these, and I have no awareness of, oh, but I'm also going to discard these other things that I just do not want to have anymore. And I I told buddies when they contacted me, I said, I know you think getting rid of your bureau phone, your 24-hour always by your side phone is a big deal. You have no idea. You have no idea of having that gone and not being somebody who's on call, where you're in a party and you're always wondering, is there a call gonna come? When you're like gonna sit down for a drink and think, I hope tonight's not the night, because I'd like to have a few, and now you're just free, and that's

When a Child Comes Out Trans

SPEAKER_01 19:47

nice.

Jody Brooks 19:47

I touched on it in the introduction there, and I know when we spoke before, obviously, that your children and the coming out as transgender, another huge shift, if there's three huge shifts Baptist Church to the FBI, and then the final one, which I know when we discussed it. I always feel mean at this point because the listeners don't know, but I already have an insight into it. Yeah, I'd like to just discuss that a little bit now, if that's okay with you, and where that appeared in this 24 years and what shifts in identity that caused.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

So I was just doing the math. I believe it was six years ago when my oldest came to us. I remember it well, picking him up from college, driving him back. And I was like, hey, you want to stop and get something to eat? No, maybe we get some groceries so you can make a meal. Yeah, my stomach really doesn't feel good. And I realized why his stomach didn't feel good, and then he very bravely said, I yeah, and and this was progressions. I'm transgender, I consider myself non-binary, which later came to identifying as male. And my wife and I had talked a bit prior, not much, I think both kind of just skirting the issue of, oh, I think our oldest you know might be gay and always going to be supportive, but they shot straight past that into saying, oh no, actually I'm transgender. And that moment broke me of long-held dogmas and values that I now can see just like the wet socks. I can look back and go, that's that was harmful. That was, and I had wondered, you know, why did you take so long to tell us this? You know that your mother and I love you and we'll always be accepting. But there was that, yeah, but they're Orthodox Christians, they're conservative to a degree. Yes, they've always been accepting of my transgender friends, but it's different when it's me. And so naturally there was that fear of believing what how we might respond, but not knowing. And so that made me confront. I believe in God. Okay. I can't see him, but I that's what faith is about. I know this person. I touch them. I can love them. I'm putting my family above this idea of God. And if he wants to judge me for it, that's the way it will be. But it really came to confront these considerations I I thought God had about homosexuality or transgenderism. Even though they weren't hyper-conservative, it was still in that vein of, yeah, but it's wrong. I don't know how to match that up. But I was going to set that aside because I could not love my child and say, I love you and accept you the way that you are is wrong. That's not love. And so if I had to shed those past beliefs, absolutely.

Rethinking Scripture and Love

Jody Brooks 23:00

Pivotal shift in so many things there. When you're those kind of things run to the very core of who you are, and essentially you're calling into question there your core values. That is the stuff that's at the very kind of heart of you.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Well, and Jody, that's a good point. Let me say this: it made me call into question why are those my core values? Not just questioning, but why am I holding these beliefs so high when it should be just love people and accept them? Just make them feel like they are safe.

Jody Brooks 23:38

I am a practicing Christian. I go to mass and as a gay man, and and I always say that there's a huge difference between being Christian and doing Christian. And there are a lot of people doing Christianity. I would question how many people are being Christian and missing the fundamental bits of it that we were told, which was about love and forgiveness and equality of people and no judgment and all of these things. And so I do sometimes wonder how it goes so adrift and causes not the love it should and the peace, but the opposite in a lot of senses.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

I think there's a lot. I can speak for me, and I and I I see this in other Christians. I think there's that I I was always wanting to be accepting and loving. That's always been part of me. But you know, like, hey, you got a little sm I still had a little smudge on my face that I wasn't noticing. And when you hold to these beliefs and you think that they are objectively true, they're not questioned. And the church, certain denominations, Baptists certainly being one of those, completely reinforces, regularly reinforces this is true and to stray from it is wrong. And so it began with the inerrancy of scripture, everything written in the Bible is fact and true. Now, if we start with that, this is how you properly interpret Sodom and Gomorrah passages in Corinthians. And now I see, no, that's not necessarily the case. And so I I used to espouse the statement from Ephesians that we should speak the truth in love. And I realized that the speaking the truth part that Christians and I emphasize was I'm gonna tell you how you're wrong. And the love part was I'm saving you from your sins. My judgment is helping you be a better person. And so now just love. Forget speaking the truth, just love. And I despite the fact that I was a Baptist pastor and I live this way, I feel like I'm a better person and Christian now than I was then.

Jody Brooks 25:59

I had a conversation with a guest. He had this very strict religious background that suddenly then all shifted, and it made him question everything. And we were having a very similar discussion, and we both agreed. There are amazing parables that are still as relevant today if you read them with perspective as they were. There's an element to remember that this is a book that is 2,000 years old, this is a book that has been translated numerous times, and I always say for other people, but in my church, we always use this phrase which people miss is that before any of scripture is read, they will say this is the gospel according to because it's also written by several different people. So you've got a handful of different people's realities in a book, etc. And so I'm always really uncomfortable when people use it as a set of strict rules and all of those things, because I'm like, you really need to step back from it a little bit. It's a very valuable book, it is the best, greatest story ever told, but yeah, it was guidance, not a list of instructions.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah, and that and that's heresy. I mean, that's that's how I grew up. And you you can't say that. You can't say that.

Jody Brooks 27:24

But now I think wiser. Me. And like I say, I could see if I'm asked, I'm practicing Christian. Always say that as well. You'll notice that the phrase is practicing. None of us are perfect. Let's get over it. We're all for life, we're gonna be practicing. The other one I always say is look, and here's the shocker: none of us are getting out of it. It's just like no one escapes the destination. Cool, we digress a lot

Coming Out Then and Now

Jody Brooks 27:45

there, but that's a huge monumental shift in identity there for your eldest. There's an element where I, as someone who in my teens and my twenties, was trying to figure out my sexuality and work out a period of time there. I don't think it's ever easy, but at the point where I was going through this, we were right in the middle of the HIV epidemic, and laws were very different. Uh, the age of consent in the UK was still 21 years of age. Life was very different in that sense, and so there's an element where I want to say to you that I find stories like yours really heartwarming because I take my hat off to you that I don't think that would have happened in my day as easily because the world wouldn't be there, and I don't think there's an element where I'd have been comfortable in that sense. I wasn't comfortable for a very long time. So there's an element where, and I'm not minimising the pain of your eldest, but there's an element where I think we can maybe understand we've got a long way to go, but also recognize in the courage of your eldest that we've come a long way for somebody to be able to even contemplate that element. I find it very heartwarming, and that isn't to minimize their struggle at all, but to say that and for them, the idea of feeling safer and more authentic,

Parent Grief and Letting Go

Jody Brooks 29:20

hey, as this strikes me, parallel that to how I was living as a pastor, where there was a mask I needed to have.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Well, now here's my child saying, I can't live with that mask. It's hard, it's debilitating to me. Who am I to say no? Push on. And what I had to confront as well, and I I didn't expect this, was mourning my expectations of hey, you're gonna grow up and be a beautiful woman and marry a guy and have kids, and this is what I'm looking for. And okay, that's not the case. And I had to confront it and think, okay, this is new, this is something different. I'm not going to have that. I'll feel sad. And part of that feeling sad is recognizing who the hell am I to impose impose my dreams upon your life? And that made it so simple to get over then of anything that I was looking forward to is so selfish. I could still want that. I could still say, yeah, that would have been nice, but it ends there. It can't be imposed upon another person. So whatever I can do to make you happy, see you find fulfillment, that that was a substance of those dreams. I thought that would be your fulfillment. Oh, it's not. Now you teach me what that's going to look like.

What Grief Really Is

Jody Brooks 30:51

You talk about something a lot for people in midlife, and I say a lot of sometimes how it feels is like grief, and we grieve things that we think we've lost. I always say about grief is and it's the same grief as if you lose a loved one, essentially. Because grief isn't actually people think it's about that person, but it's not. Grief is about us and it's about what we've lost. And so when we grieve someone, we grieve what we've lost. Not we're not actually sad for them. We think we are, but we're not sad for them. So what we're sad for is the bits of our identity that were based in them. And obviously, the closer that person is and the closer they are to your identity, the bigger the sense of loss. And yeah, that's a very Asian that you say that, but that must have been quite a, like you say there, quite a weird shift as well, because you've got both at the same time, one sense of loss, but then also a gain, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Again, in the benefit of now I'm learning better. I I my child can now be closer to me instead of having to kind of live up to this edge, but not open themselves up fully. And who who would want that as a parent? Who would want their child to like, yes, as long as you're living the your life the way I want you to, but you're not authentic, that's not pleasing. That that shouldn't be the way.

Jody Brooks 32:18

Is there anything before we move to the second half of the show in the messiness before we talk about how it's changed who you are now in retirement and obviously your book? Is there anything we haven't covered that you feel the listener really needs to hear before we move to the more fresh

Faith Breaking Point

Jody Brooks 32:35

stuff?

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Just one more thing with that departure and re-examination of faith, and that was investigations into white supremacists over time. As I saw, I think that was that was the stick, that was the last straw, seeing hate speech, Bible verse, hate speech, Bible verse, and then seeing in their friends list, oh, that's an elder in my church, and for some reason they're okay with still being friends with this person. And that's where all this together, recognizing my children are demonized by certain churches, they would not be welcomed. And here are people who are now more open to show hate. I'm gonna get away from that and focus, as we talked about, more on the love and acceptance.

Jody Brooks 33:27

We are all told that we are all God's children, and it's interesting that that huge shift for you was when it was actually your child caused fundamental shift. And so maybe if people behaved a little bit more like that, then it would be a much more loving and simpler place. That has been quite a conversation. I've sat here now rapidly as we're doing it, thinking how do I sum this up? But I think what really stands out for me there is peace that it is for many people in midlife about identity, and hugely what shouts out is these external identities. You said it about being in ministry where you felt like you had a mask on, so it was an external thing that was outside of you, and then obviously there's still quite an external element within the FBI, but how that began a shift, but again, that whole piece around identity and values and morals is shift-changed when your eldest announces that they're transgender and how you identify there about the sense of grief. That is phenomenal. We need to take a quick break so I can catch my breath before the second half. So, listeners, whilst you listen to this advert, we'll catch our breath and we'll see you in the second half. Before we get back to the conversation, I want to tell you about the wider messy midlife space. Every episode has its own home at messymidlifepodcast.world where you'll find the full show notes, practical takeaways, guest bios, and links to anything we've talked about today. You'll also find a link to the Messy Midlife community, a supportive space where you can connect with me, connect with others who get it, and access free tools to help you explore the nine principles of authentic living in your own life. And if you feel ready for more personal support, visit authenticcoaching.me to find out about one-to-one coaching and book a free 45-minute call with me. This show is brought to you completely free. The only thing I ask is that if it's helping you, please subscribe in your chosen podcast app so you never miss an episode. Leave a review, like this episode, and most importantly of all, share it with a friend or loved one who might need to hear it. Because midlife might be messy, but it does not have to be a crisis. It can be a calling to connect. Now let's get back to today's show.

Second Half Retirement Shift

Jody Brooks 35:57

Welcome back, messy midlifers. I'm still here with Eric, former FBI agent, pastor. He had an amazing conversation in the first half of the show, talking about identity shifts, faith, transgender, and how all of these things cause us to call into question our external identity and ultimately our internal identity. After those pivotal shifts where they were all called to reckon as you retired after 24 years, how does life look now, Eric?

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Jody, I preached my last sermon in my church on Easter Sunday, 2002. And I was in the FBI Academy the next Sunday to start a new career. And the Sunday after that, I preached in the chapel at the FBI Academy because they didn't have a chaplain. So I felt like they're easing me into this new life. And uh yeah, your question is good because talking to you and talking to others about my career in the past, writing the book, I think is that that way of like holding on a bit, but starting to let go. Rather than day one of retirement, everything's done. I don't talk to anybody. I've had friends reach out, and so I'm not hitting them up each day, but it's nice to every now and then reflect back, talk to them, ask how things are, and then sharing stories about my time in the FBI is the way of like looking back just a little bit, holding on with a loose grip, but now transitioning into speaking of those things in the past tense.

Jody Brooks 37:42

Quite often in life, people have a habit of as I call like blowing their life up and completely blowing it to smithereens and going, there we are, I've got no choice

FBI Habits After Service

Jody Brooks 37:52

now. But I do feel like you have, as much as you've had these pivotal moments, you have transitioned. That's the bit that I want to ask now is which elements, because you haven't got rid of everything, you've just remodeled the elements all the way through. So which bits of FBI agent have you now remodeled into your world of being retired?

SPEAKER_01 38:16

There's always gonna be it went from hyper-vigilance to no just vigilance, perhaps, of still scanning areas when you do something like that for so many years to see how people are reacting. When you take the seat that's back to the wall and faces the door, I'm I'm not the person who runs to gunfire anymore, but I assume I probably still would be because that's just what you do. So, you know, a lot of it is holding on to fond memory of the amazing things that I got to do and be. When I was first in the FBI and they said, yes, we'll bring you on board. I thought, I really, wow, that's amazing. I get to be part of this. Also wondered what was wrong with them, but uh still. And throughout my career, there were many boring days, but there's also so many times where I thought, this is remarkable that I got I get to do this. I had a buddy who went to Princeton, and he tells me one day, it's like, yeah, I'm on social media and I'm seeing all my friends from college, all these Ivy League friends, and they're doing amazing things, CEOs and doctors. And I said, AJ, you're on FBI SWAT team. They all wish they were you. And I meant that. I'm like, I got to be on the SWAT team as well. And I thought, this who would have thought if I'd have gone back and told myself that I wouldn't have believed it. But so all along, it's just sitting in a bit of the afterglow of thinking that was something special I got to do.

Jody Brooks 39:55

As a brick, can I just say I didn't think I'd gonna sit down and have a conversation with an FBI agent? So today I'm like, oh my god, I've spoken to a real live FBI. Whenever I watch a thing on Netflix again now, Eric, it's never gonna be the same. Like, never gonna be the same. I mean, just there as well. So

Adrenaline and Survivor Tales

Jody Brooks 40:14

if I'm wrong, it's quite a lot of adrenaline to being an FBI agent. Does someone who used to have all that adrenaline now have all that adrenaline in retirement, or have you just given up adrenaline?

SPEAKER_01 40:27

I've I've given it up. Well, and and as you know, I mean the adrenaline I uh we talked about this. I really enjoyed those thrills, and then also now that I'm not in them, I'm like, man, that was tiring. And so maybe this is what putting on the mantle of an old man, thankfully, like, oh, I'm just gonna take this on. But I getting in those moments was a lot of adrenaline. I'll show I'll show you a quick one time I had a massive adrenaline dump. This was two years ago, and we were in a life-threatening situation where we encountered someone who we had to use deadly force on, and that was two years ago, and you can tell me the minute that we got into a gunfight where the adrenaline spiked the heart rate. I remember looking at that later, and you know, we're we're going to do an arrest, so the body amps it up a little bit, and then when we're in a life-threatening situation, it goes up to 178 beats a minute. But what was great about that is, and then you saw it come immediately down. We resolved it, and now we I just had a job to do. If it would have plateaued there, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but that those spikes would come, and then we'd have stories to tell. Those spikes would come, and I found that so many times we would share tales like that of like, oh, this time we were doing this and someone almost got killed. And guys tell them and they laugh. And someone else on the outside would go, Oh, I'm sorry you had to go through that. And you're like, Oh, no, no, it's hilarious. You're like, it was hilarious that you almost died. And I realized, oh, you know what? We're telling survivor stories. This is we could have been killed, aha, but we didn't. Got you. Here we still are, and yeah, I miss those. And then I also don't miss being in those situations.

Jody Brooks 42:31

I suppose that's what I was saying about like adrenaline kind of thing, is when you've been so prime for that and it's

Retirement Advice Identity

Jody Brooks 42:38

habit. Yeah. Is there any piece of advice that you would give if there's a listener or any of your former colleagues who are about to face retirement? Is there something you wished you would have known in the period running up to actually retiring that you think, oh, I wish I'd done that now because that would have made this easier?

SPEAKER_01 43:02

No, I and there's guys who parlay their FBI career into a third career, second career into something that's a moneymaker, or people who look for other opportunities. And so so many guys have different things ahead of them. I was given the advice of don't be so quick to move on to another job, make sure you take a little rest. But all along the way, I think, and it'll be different for me. It was very much an identity. Some people retire and say, I can't wait to get out. I didn't understand that. I love the people and I love the work. But for those who will have to confront that identity situation, uh start talking about it right away. I mean, they could talk to me, and I feel foolish that I didn't realize because I always preach this people are very resilient, humans are resilient. And so the things that you fear are never that bad. And even if they are that bad, you just right yourself afterwards. So if that had been a crisis of identity of me leaving the FBI and it really struck me existentially, I would have still come out the other side. Whenever confronting those traumas, poor decisions, harms, humans just wreak and get back on a new path.

Jody Brooks 44:28

I wish I had that approach and not just gone, oh my god, I blew my life up. So quite literally. And so obviously, I think I feel like there's an element where maybe these shifting identities have made you very aware of how they fit and how important they are to you. And obviously the FBI is quite necessary.

Writing the Book to Heal

Jody Brooks 44:51

So was writing the book about honoring that identity.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

It was. It felt it I started writing it before I retired. And so it was almost that the you know your dog's gonna die soon, and so you want to spend your time with them. And for me, it was much like that like, oh yeah, I remember this. Let me write about that. And all along, now I started as I was writing, I'm like, oh my gosh, this was a Baptist pastor who spent a quarter century in the FBI. That's what this is, because I didn't bring the ministry in, as we said, I wasn't uh trying to witness to criminals, but I'm not different. The man who was the pastor just got to do different things in the FBI. So that same desire to show kindness and humanity people, that was there. And I tried to do that as much as I could. And then, hey, if we got to get in a fight, we'll get in a fight too. But so, all throughout, as I'm talking, writing about these interactions with criminals and with victims and these investigations that I have, it all ended up being that pastor got into the FBI, and now, oh, looking back, these were the amazing things he got to be a part of.

Jody Brooks 46:14

Of transitioning from one thing to the next. I was like, he even started transitioning into retirement by writing a book before you left. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

We uh when I would do trainings for outside agencies, local police, I would always I you know, I've telling dirty jokes and not looking like a minister. And I would always say, Everybody gets one guess after the training is over. One guess what I used to do before I got into the FBI. I've got an FBI patch, if you get it right. And we'd go around, and the guys would say, Military. I'm like, why the hell would I give you a patch for for guessing that I was in the military before? And uh, I gave out one patch during all those years where somebody noticed some religious tattoos and was smart enough to realize it shouldn't be the kind of thing you would think of. Don't say cop. That's obvious. But so all along the way there was always that you know, that joke, that playfulness of like, hey, this guy used to be a pastor, and then when I got out, I thought, oh, that actually was kind of remarkable.

Jody Brooks 47:18

When as a coach, when I work with people, I only have one non-negotiable for clients, and that is that they journal essentially right because of its healing nature, whether people realize it at the time or not. How much really was the book about more a journal essentially and more a process of yeah, healing that transition?

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Well, it started with my wife just challenging me to write the book. She's worked in author marketing for 14 years, has her own company with that, and so naturally that's that's where her mind goes. So it started with

Stakeout Story Final Chapter

SPEAKER_01 48:00

that, and then I would be writing, and like you ask about stakeouts, you know, I'm sitting there having to do nothing but just be available in case there's a problem. And so I've got my laptop with me. And I remember on one occasion, and this is how I ended the book, I thought, oh my gosh, I'm just gonna write about this. And so it's me and an agent from another division who had we got connected through another agent who used to work with me, and he goes, Hey, doesn't your informant know people by this name? Because he remembered some of the names of my informant's uh interactions, and my informant goes, Yeah, he's in my family. And this guy had been using every sophisticated technique to get in on this terrorist, and yet he still needed a human connection. And my guy was going to be that, and we manipulated things beautifully and got him in to the terrorist, and there we sat while the culmination of this came together, where the informant was meeting with the terrorist, and we're introducing another informant, and the government's paying for dinner, so we got dinner for us, and there's this scene is like this is what it's about. This night where I'm out late, my day started early, this guy traveled across the state, drove back after we set up the microphones and briefed the informant because his daughter's first soccer game was that night, and then came back. And I told him, You don't have to come back, I've got this handled. He goes, No, I gotta be there. And just the commitment of the men and women I worked with and this aspect all came together. So it really struck me. And your question is, like, how is this cathartic? And and by that point, now I was, oh my gosh, this is me expressing how much I really appreciated this, and let me encapsulate it in this final chapter. And every time I'm telling you, every time I read that chapter as I go through, I start tearing off like uh obviously a very pivotal moment.

Jody Brooks 50:13

And yeah, I writing the book, so you suppose like that did the book eventually, there's that last bit there, but doing the book and and going on that journey and back cataloguing the journal, did that make it easier essentially to make the transition? Because in journaling it, it was externalized down on paper and not still spinning around the head.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Absolutely. And referencing back to those survivor stories, that is how I believe agents often dealt with trauma. So whether it's you know, big trauma, little trauma, we would tell stories, and that's getting out into reality what's spinning around the head. And so when we speak it into existence with another person who either was there or knows what that's like, nobody's crying on shoulders, nobody's hugging sometimes, but you know, we're just telling these stories of things that we've been through and survived, and sometimes it's disgusting, sometimes it's heartbreaking, but we're just speaking it out loud. I got to do that then in full. This is this was all of it. I mean, it wasn't all, but but this is all of it. This is all that I went through and saw and got through and did some good things with, too. So even in the cases where, oh, there's nothing in here that's traumatic, yeah. But I accomplished this. We came to a conclusion against all odds, got a conviction, great job. Traumatic.

Jody Brooks 51:48

Maybe that's the FBI agent speaking. I'm pretty sure. Oh no, this there is the rest of us could be like, whoa, that's pretty insane.

Book Plug and Terror Case

Jody Brooks 51:56

So it would be miss of me not to get you to give a shout out to the book.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

So for Father, this is my Father's Day present. My wife had that made. Uh, the book is irreverent from saving souls to chasing sinners in the FBI. And it is just as we discussed, it's it's what happens when the Baptist pastor, who's never handled a gun, goes into the FBI, becomes a SWAT operator, firearms instructor, and and gets to be a part of some remarkable things. And to your to your point, like my statement was like in this chapter, maybe there wasn't trauma, but there's definitely a lot. And I think that's the kind of thing people can pick up and see, wow, that was something. And real briefly, I remember one where we got information that there was a man traveling from the West Coast, and he had given his driver an address, and he says, I need to be there by October 7th. And the man put that in the system, but later looked it up because the guy was strange and it was the Israeli embassy. And October 7th was going to be the one-year anniversary of the Hamas attack. And the guy calls the FBI, and this kid wears a backpack on his front. He never lets go of it. The driver says, I think he might be Persian. And so we go through all this planning all night long. Had a full day and then was planning all night to arrest him as he left the hotel in the morning. And as I left my house at midnight to go start planning this, I said to my wife, Well, this will make the news one way or the other. That, you know, either we just foiled a terror attack, or the other way that it would make the news. Because bomb dog hit, there was no question that this guy must have some explosives on him. And it just, and it was fine. And everything went well and nobody died. But it was just one of those that's what we went through of all night long planning, takedown in the morning, bomb tech's ready, wheels squealing, guns pointed, possibility of us being turned into a pink mist on a Thursday morning. But we got through it, and it's fine, and now it's an incredible story.

Jody Brooks 54:12

Blown to smithereens, a pink mist. It's just Yeah. It is like it's the way to go. It's the way to go if you're gonna go. Is there anything in the second half there that we haven't covered before we head to those final questions?

SPEAKER_01 54:37

I was hoping you could tell me. So, step by step, as I get to relive this and tell people about the book, uh, we'll see what comes next after this. I do have some in plan, but and we'll see where it goes too, because if my plans don't work, then as I said, just rebound and recenter. Where can people get in contact with you, get a copy of the book? The book comes out in October. I am going back and forth with the FBI right now. Hopefully they'll be done reviewing it soon, but it comes out in October. Until then, people can keep track of that, keep track of me at my website, which is preacher to breacher.com.

Jody Brooks 55:16

We'll be in the show notes for everybody to be able to get through and get in touch with

Stay Curious Closing

Jody Brooks 55:22

you. Eric, my final question, as always, for all of my guests: if you could plant a seed in the mind of the listeners today that would grow and bear fruit over time, what would that seed be?

SPEAKER_01 55:35

I've never regretted showing curiosity and listening before telling people what I think is true. When I can remember to do that, I've never gone back and thought, oh, I should have just gotten my piece in first. It came through in ministry, it came through in law enforcement work, so never have I regretted a man. Opening with curiosity.

Jody Brooks 56:00

Today's show has been so rich, so enjoyable from my perspective. It's one of those shows that I'm like, oh my god, I get to do this for a living, and it's really not work. Um, all of those things from essentially from giving sermons to serving various other things, weapons, etc. It's quite a pivotal journey. So much of it on identity and on values. I think what really stands out for me is that constant element of your ability to transform, transition, and continue to question things, and how writing the book is almost a healing journey. That transformation hasn't meant that at any point have you completely disregarded anything, but very much one of my principles in the nine principles is transformation, and I talk very much how we're always becoming, and all of our pieces are important, and we just put them back together in different ways, like the Japanese art form of Kinsugi. His conversation has left an impact on me, I'm sure it has on the as always. Eric said it there is stay curious and listen. Stay curious and listen to yourselves, stay curious and listen to the world around you. And remember, you're not broken, you're becoming, and I will see you on the next episode. Thank you for spending this time with me on Messi Midlife. If this episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who might need to hear it today. You can find the show notes below and more resources at authenticcoaching.me. And just a little gentle reminder Messi Midlife is here for information, reflection, and growth. If you have concerns about your physical or mental health, please reach out to a qualified professional. Until next time, take good care of yourself. And remember, midlife might be messy, but it's not a crisis, it's a quality.